The ayes have it. Out with fox hunting. HOW did YOUR MP vote?
From: Professor Ludwig (conservation_at_berlin-fin.de)
Date: 09/17/04
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:46:00 +0100
5.28 pm
Mr. James Paice (South-East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Let me start by
saying that I wholly condemn violence from wherever and whomever it
comes. I also condemn anyone who seeks to disrupt the proceedings in
this Chamber. I want to make it absolutely clear that my party and I
take that view. I do not believe that those who have disrupted our
proceedings this afternoon are any more representative of hunt
supporters than the violent end of those who seek to oppose hunting
are representative of hunt opponents.
I believe that this is a sad day for this country, not just because of
hunting, but because of issues that are more fundamental. I refer to
the fundamental and historic virtues of tolerance and respect for
minorities. The debate is the consequence of the Government's
determination to contradict the clear evidence of their own advisers
through the Burns inquiry and the Portcullis House hearings.
For generations, Labour MPs have urged us in this place, often quite
rightly, to respect the rights, freedoms, cultures and even sexual
practices of different races and religions. Here, however, they want
to go much further. We are a tolerant country. We accept in our
society people with many conflicting views who carry out different
activities, some of which we may not like. It is not a crime to live
in Britain and to plot the overthrow of the Government of another
country. We allow the freedom of speech of those who try to overthrow
even our own democracy. We permit peaceful demonstrations by countless
minorities, however much they disrupt the normal life of other people.
Those are all features of a just, tolerant and pluralistic society, of
which we should be proud and which we should seek to maintain.
However, this Bill is totally contrary to those values. It will
criminalise the activities of a small number of people who, in every
other aspect of life, are valued members of our community. They
include doctors, nurses, teachers, firemen, business people, farmers
and many others.
Whatever public opinion may be, in the history of this House there
have been many occasions when hon. Members quite rightly have stood
back and viewed an issue objectively, and when they have said that the
House must not necessarily respond to public opinion and be
pressurised by it. One of the starkest examples of that was the
question of capital punishment. For decades after its abolition, there
was no doubt about where public opinion lay, despite repeated votes in
the House that such punishment should not take place.
The consequences of this Bill are quite clear. In numerical terms, it
will not save the life of a single animal, and that brings me to a
crucial point: the distinction between the welfare of an individual
animal and that of the species. The desire to protect one animal from
one form of death is understandable, but the Bill will damage the
welfare of the species. That was demonstrated over and again in the
evidence given to the Burns inquiry, and in the conclusions that the
inquiry reached.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1349
I come now to what I believe is the fundamental point to be made about
this debate. Many people, both in the House and outside it, oppose
hunting, and I readily accept that their number includes many of my
constituents. As the hon. Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) said a
few moments ago, those people believe hunting to be cruel, and they
consider it wrong for people to gain pleasure from what is perceived
to be cruel.
That is a perfectly honourable position, but I want to make two points
to counter it. First, if it is the alleged cruelty of hunting that
attracts its followers, they will often be sorely disappointed,
because the reality is that few hunt followers ever see the kill, and
the vast majority of those involved in a hunt are hundreds of yards
behind when the hounds catch up with the fox.
Secondly, and more importantly, the evidence given to the Government
and the conclusions of the Burns inquiry make it clear that there will
be no overall reduction in animal suffering, nor in the cruelty that
some people believe takes place. That brings us to the fundamental
question: should this House decide what may give people pleasure, if
that does no damage to others and if it is not to their detriment?
Should we decide what is good for people's souls? I believe that we
should not.
If there were clear evidence that banning hunting would markedly
reduce animal suffering, the Bill would be justified, but there is no
such evidence. No animal will be saved and no human being will gain
from a ban. We will be sacrificing the fundamental values of freedom,
choice, liberty and tolerance that generations of our predecessors in
this House have nurtured and cherished.
If we diminish those values on this issue, who knows what will be
next? Whose freedoms will next be diminished? I urge the House to
pause before it turns against a minority just because it disagrees
with it.
5.33 pm
The Minister for the Environment and Agri-environment (Mr. Elliot
Morley): I begin by welcoming the very firm comments that Opposition
Members have made about the need to respect the rule of law and the
democratic process, including the democratic processes of this House.
The hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) made some important
points about people who think that they can pick and choose when it
comes to obeying the law.
In the debate, hon. Members have said that there are more pressing
issues on which to legislate, and that this is not an issue for
Parliament. It has been stated that a ban would set supporters of the
sport against its opponents, that sufficient laws already exist to
prevent abuse and that minority rights must be considered along with
the sport's social value. It was even stated that hunted animals
derive pleasure from the activity—although similar remarks were made
when the abolition of bull baiting was debated in this House in the
1800s. It seems that the arguments about blood sports have been aired
not just in the lifetime of this Parliament, but for nearly 200 years.
David Winnick: Will my hon. Friend give way?
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1350
Mr. Morley: If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I shall not as I have
agreed to cut down my reply to just five minutes to allow maximum
participation for hon. Members.
I want to make points on two important issues: minorities and
democracy. I concede that the rights of minorities are important, and
that majority views are not always correct. I would still oppose
hunting with hounds if I were in a minority, but I do not believe that
I am in this country. As the right hon. Member for Maidstone and The
Weald (Miss Widdecombe) said, it is not rational always to take into
account minority views, whatever they are, without being able to
override them depending on the situation at the time, the views of
society and attitudes that change over time. On occasion, a judgment
must be made. This is a moral issue, as is reflected in the fact that
we have a free vote.
It is nonsense to suggest that this is an attack on rural society, or
that every single person who lives in the country cares passionately
for hunting or supports it. We need to take into account the fact that
there are people in the countryside who have raised strong views
against it, as my hon. Friends have stated. As far as democracy is
concerned, this was a manifesto commitment, and it reflects the will
of the House in a number of votes with very substantial majorities.
The issue has, of course, been debated since 1945.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friends the Members for Hull, North (Mr.
McNamara) and for Worcester (Mr. Foster), and my right hon. Friend the
Member for Dumbarton (Mr. McFall), who have campaigned for a long time
on the issue. Not least, I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the
Minister for the countryside, who has been incredibly patient and has
tried to bring both sides together to ensure that everybody had the
opportunity to make their points.
It is nonsense to say of this debate that views have not been taken
into account on the many issues. When we talk about minorities, I
should say that there are people such as Eric Ashby, who suffered
terribly in relation to the activities of fox hunts, and who was a
minority in the area. He was awarded an MBE for his work with
wildlife, and I am only sorry that he is not alive today to see this
moment, for which he campaigned all his life.
This issue has been debated many times. Nothing new has been raised
today. This is about the kind of society we live in. What we have seen
outside the House as people have attacked and abused the police and
abused the democratic history of this House demonstrates that it is
true that a minority of people—I would not claim that they speak for
all hunt supporters—care little for animals and little for people
today.
We have heard about affronts. If there has been an affront, it is the
affront that the Parliament Acts have had to be used because an
unrepresentative, unelected and unaccountable House of Lords is
clearly prepared to ignore the results of a free vote of the elected
House on a manifesto commitment by an elected Government. If there is
an affront, it is an affront that it has taken until four years into
the 21st century to end an activity that comes down to inflicting
prolonged pain and stress on animals for no other reason than the
entertainment of their tormentors.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1351
This debate has gone on long enough. The people have spoken. Now is
the time to act.
Question put, That the Bill be read a Second time:—
The House divided: Ayes 356, Noes 166.
Division No. 250
[5:38 pm
AYES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Adams, Irene (Paisley N)
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Amess, David
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Bailey, Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Banks, Tony
Barnes, Harry
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Kevin
Battle, John
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, rh Margaret
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Bennett, Andrew
Berry, Roger
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blizzard, Bob
Boateng, rh Paul
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brake, Tom (Carshalton)
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Mrs Annette L.
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend)
Browne, Desmond
Bryant, Chris
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Paul
Byrne, Liam (B'ham Hodge H)
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Richard
Cairns, David
Calton, Mrs Patsy
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Caplin, Ivor
Carmichael, Alistair
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chaytor, David
Chidgey, David
Clark, Mrs Helen (Peterborough)
Clark, Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Cranston, Ross
Crausby, David
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Ann (Keighley)
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunningham, rh Dr. Jack (Copeland)
Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
David, Wayne
Davidson, Ian
Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dhanda, Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Doran, Frank
Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Drown, Ms Julia
Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Edwards, Huw
Efford, Clive
Farrelly, Paul
Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Mrs Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Foster, rh Derek
Foster, Don (Bath)
Foster, Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Gale, Roger (N Thanet)
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gill, Parmjit Singh
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grogan, John
Hain, rh Peter
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Havard, Dai (Merthyr Tydfil & Rhymney)
Healey, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hendrick, Mark
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Margaret
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale)
Hope, Phil (Corby)
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E)
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Hurst, Alan (Braintree)
Hutton, rh John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Eric
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W)
Johnson, Miss Melanie (Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W)
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan (Feltham)
Kelly, Ruth (Bolton W)
Kennedy, rh Charles (Ross Skye & Inverness)
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kidney, David
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green & Bow)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, David
Lawrence, Mrs Jackie
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Laxton, Bob (Derby N)
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Stephen
McCartney, rh Ian
McDonagh, Siobhain
MacDonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
MacDougall, John
McFall, rh John
McGuire, Mrs Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Mackinlay, Andrew
McNamara, Kevin
McNulty, Tony
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahmood, Khalid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, rh Michael
Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Alan
Miliband, David
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moran, Margaret
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Elliot
Morris, rh Estelle
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, George
Munn, Ms Meg
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, rh Paul (Torfaen)
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Edward
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Perham, Linda
Picking, Anne
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Plaskitt, James
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris (Gravesham)
Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prescott, rh John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Ken
Purnell, James
Quin, rh Joyce
Quinn, Lawrie
Rammell, Bill
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Raynsford, rh Nick
Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Rendel, David
Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooney, Terry
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian
Sarwar, Mohammad
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Shipley, Ms Debra
Short, rh Clare
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, rh Chris (Islington S & Finsbury)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Soley, Clive
Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Taylor, Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Taylor, John (Solihull)
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Gareth (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Paul
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Walley, Ms Joan
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Robert N.
Watts, David
Webb, Steve (Northavon)
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Williams, Betty (Conwy)
Willis, Phil
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wood, Mike (Batley)
Woodward, Shaun
Woolas, Phil
Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, David (Telford)
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Tom Watson and
Derek Twigg
NOES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Ancram, rh Michael
Arbuthnot, rh James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim)
Beith, rh A. J.
Bellingham, Henry
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey)
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Browning, Mrs Angela
Burnett, John
Burns, Simon
Burnside, David
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies (NE Fife)
Cash, William
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet)
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clarke, rh Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Collins, Tim
Conway, Derek
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James (Beverley)
Curry, rh David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford)
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden)
Djanogly, Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Stephen
Doughty, Sue
Duncan, Alan (Rutland)
Duncan Smith, rh Iain
Evans, Nigel
Fabricant, Michael
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster)
Fisher, Mark
Flight, Howard
Flook, Adrian
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francois, Mark
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis)
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Goodman, Paul
Gray, James (N Wilts)
Green, Damian (Ashford)
Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Greenway, John
Gummer, rh John
Hague, rh William
Hammond, Philip
Harris, Dr. Evan (Oxford W & Abingdon)
Harvey, Nick
Hawkins, Nick
Hayes, John (S Holland)
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David
Hendry, Charles
Hermon, Lady
Hoey, Kate (Vauxhall)
Hogg, rh Douglas
Horam, John (Orpington)
Howard, rh Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Hunter, Andrew
Jack, rh Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Johnson, Boris (Henley)
Keetch, Paul
Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Andrew
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, rh Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Lidington, David
Lilley, rh Peter
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Mackay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Malins, Humfrey
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Mawhinney, rh Sir Brian
Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Moore, Michael
Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Norman, Archie
Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Portillo, rh Michael
Price, Adam (E Carmarthen & Dinefwr)
Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, David
Sayeed, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns & Kincardine)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Spring, Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Anthony
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon)
Syms, Robert
Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F)
Thomas, Simon (Ceredigion)
Thurso, John
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trimble, rh David
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight)
Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Walter, Robert
Waterson, Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Whittingdale, John
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Williams, Hywel (Caernarfon)
Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Wilshire, David
Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Bill Wiggin and
Mr. Crispin Blunt
Question accordingly agreed to.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1354
The Bill, according to Order [this day], was treated as having been
committed to a Committee of the whole House and as having been
reported from the Committee without amendment.
15 Sept 2004 : Column 1355
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