Re: AI vaccination approved for EU

PammyT wrote:
" Jill" <newsNOSPAM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1140651201.28088.0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
PammyT wrote:
Perhaps there is some way small scale poultry keepers could band
together and force the government to allow us to vaccinate our
flocks since we do not export our birds and trade would not
therefore be affected?

Have you read Prof Pennington on the use of this vaccine?
no

There are various reports online. He is probably one of the worlds leading
microbiologists
He is also critical of the governments potential response once it gets here
so you cannot say he is a govt lackey

for instance
This stance was backed by one of Britain's leading microbiologists,
Professor Hugh Pennington, of Aberdeen University, who said: "Vaccination is
not the clear answer to the problem. You might have infection in vaccinated
birds which would go unnoticed because the birds are protected by the
vaccine. You might have a worse situation than if you hadn't vaccinated.

"And it might drive the evolution of the virus in ways we wouldn't like. It
might push it towards being a human virus. Who knows? There are
uncertainties about vaccination, which means it's not the clear front-runner
to control the virus."

The World Health Organisation said there was no sign of the virus mutating
into a strain that is capable of being passed from human to human, which
could cause a global pandemic killing millions, but also issued a warning
that the disease appeared to becoming more dangerous for chickens and mice.

It said: "Studies have shown that H5N1 viruses from the current outbreaks,
when compared with viruses from 1997 and 2003, have become progressively
more lethal in experimentally infected chickens and mice, and are also
hardier."


Have you seen that this is not a vaccine against H5N1 but only
against H2 types?
Yes but it must surely be possible to produce the vaccine against H5

It has not been succesfully done yet and there has been a massive effort
especially in SE Asia where some of the best laboratories for this sort of
work is and where they have thrown a huge amount of money at it


Have you read about this vaccination masking the infection so that
there is no way to tell what is happening and the ramifications of
that situation?
Yes but I beleive this is government propoganda.

Have you read anything that is independant?
or do you consider nothing to be so?
I prefer to do my own research


That there is no clear test to tell the difference between infected
and vaccinated?
That there is no proof that this vaccine works to protect birds for
any length of time?

The fact that there is no proof is not conclusive evidence that it
will not protect birds, it only means that it has not been deemed
important enought o research so none was done.

You are kidding - this virus has been decimating communities and costing
governments billions over the past 10 years
This is not something that has just appeared.

It's cheaper to kill
chickens and pay a pittance in compensation than to help breeders of
rare breeds and purebred poultry to be able to vaccinate their birds.

No it is not
I strongly suggest you go and read up about what has happened over the past
10 years
compensation is only a very small amount of the costs of this virus


- this problem is going to be with us for years to come.
So lobby for better research into an effective vaccine such as exists
for human flu.

There is already massive efforts to do this.
The global industry needs this solved - random outbreaks are not good
business


Have you not seen that its the industry in France and Holland that
wants the vaccine?
Its fine - they will not have birds aline long enough for it to be a
problem
So you say. It is still conjecture.

They are vaccinating birds that will be in the food chain before the autumn
These are not parent birds.


If you want your birds to live through the next few years of autumn
migrations maybe this is not the best option?
I want a 'belt and braces' option. My birds under cover *and*
vaccinated.
I shall have to kill my Sebastopol geese as I have nowhere to confine
them.

Geese are going to be a big problem for everyone
We are glad we had reduced our flocks over the past couple of years and not
got new breeds.
This was due to the deteriorating climate
We have a building that will take those we have left comfortably and we have
thought up feeds to keep them entertained and healthy.


The only places who have remained clean of H5N1 despite constant
infected migratory birds are those who have dealt swiftly and
cleanly with outbreaks and have not vaccinated - mainly of note
South Korea and Japan
Do you know how much it costs?
Pennies apparently. £12 for a 1000 birds.

I am interested for the source of that quote
I have heard widely varying opinions so have not a reliable figure yet

How do you propose to vaccinate EVERY bird in the country?
I never said I wanted every bird vaccinated. Those living in battery
and grower sheds will not ever come into contact with wild buirds. I
simply want the *option* to vaccinate my own birds at my own expense
if I choose.

But either all birds are vaccinated or the effect will be to hide the virus
The vaccine is not fool proof

What do you do about hatchlings - it takes 3 weeks for immunity ?


What about precious
lines, carefully bred for for decades?

Unfortunately in 2006 there are very very few with true clean lines
left and those that are, are just about scunnered with it all
I know several breeders with pure lines.

There are plenty of breeders with pure lines but they will have used other
breeders birds over the years

One chap of 90 years old has
kept this particular breed for over 60 years. The loss of his birds
would have enormous ramifications on that particular breed.

So who is taking them on now?
He will not be here forever
So many lines have been lost when relatives dispose of flocks on the death
of a keeper

Of no importance at all in the grand scheme of things, my own cochins
are irreplaceable to me. My blue strain in particular has been with
me for around 10 years. I know my birds, what temperaments they have,
what colours they are likely to throw. A new bird is csarefully
introduced to compliment my breeding. Not important to you or the
government I know but if I lost my whole flock of birds, mentally it
would finish me.

It would be upsetting - I agree.
Many of us have put our life and soul into our birds and our breeding
It would not finish you
Life would go on

Will they also kill all my parrots who share
aviaries with some of the bantams and who never come into contact
with wild birds? If not why not since they too will carry the virus.

Probably as they have been proven to die of it.

As usual the government is simply whistling into the wind and hope
that nobody notices that they have no idea. They don't offer proper
guidance and advice. We have to try to glean what we can from the
internet and watch what other countries are doing.

You have obviously read little adn researched less
Thats entirely your perogative
Each country has different risks and threats and experiences and poultry
distributions

Mainland Europe has a serious threat this spring of many millions of
migrating birds heading North and East
The UK only has around 3 thousand waterfowl coming in and millions leaving
Next autumn will be a very different matter

Shambolic is a word which springs to mind and I will be sharpening my
pitchfork tines because they will not kill my birds without a fight.
I will have great pleasure in making at least one of the bastards
bleed.

Perhaps we should be lobbying
our MP's to allow us to vaccinate even if it means the commercially
produced birds and the like don't have vaccination.

Everyone may need to read up about how this is all working and who
is wanting to vaccinate and why.
Read up if the data has not been influenced by parliament leaning on
the scientists to provide the evidence it wants.

Why do you consider that decimating a multimillion pound industry, upsetting
millions of voters, jeopardising our ecolgy would be considered a useful
thing for a government to do?



How will the large waterfol breeders cope with confining all their
stock?

Many of the pure breeders have their birds in through the winter anyway -
certainly one of the largests always has done to rest the ground.
The others have had plenty of warning and will be making the provisions
necessary

Hopefully the government will hold their nerve and not force birds inside
unneccesarily

What about free range pig breeders?

They will have to consider their risks and potentiallly appropriate action.

It isn't simply about my
or you covering the runs of our couple of hundred chickens.

I agree - we have over 50 large units to "protect"
And a tidal creek at the end of the field.
"theorectically" we are at low risk until AI crosses the US to Greenland etc
but that will not stop us being caught up in all the hoohaa
Thats why your arguement about the loss of millions of chickens does not
hold up
The commercial world is a much more powerful force to want protection or a
solution to this problem
We may be noisy on the sidelines but thats about it.
Its more important that the noise thats made is good science - not raw
emotion or pure economics

The
sooner a reliable vaccine is produced for *all* species, the better.
BTW there is a vaccination available against the AIDS visrus.

IF there can be - this virus is mutating still quite rapidly, this may be
one reason why they cannot nail down a stable vaccine
There is also the human health risk part of the equation - we do not want to
mask its progress or its changes for the sake of a few chickens

A
morning after pill type thing for those at risk. Why is the WHO or
similar not throwing billions into finding an effective anti viral
drug.

It is - and has been
The virus is already showing immunity to Tamiflu in China

If an infected person or animal could be given such a thing the
risks would be smaller.

Not necessarily in the bigger picture
Individual birds are not important here - I don't like it any more than
anyone else but there is a global picture here

It is simply all about trade, and money. It is cheaper to kill
everything than to develop anti virals or an effective vaccine.

No it is not
You could not be more wrong


I am not pro or anti vaccination at this point -- there is simply
not enough known about the vaccine or the virus to be able to
certain of the future. However the cons are tipping the balance over
the pros right now.
Only if you are gullible enough to believe what DEFRA and the
government tells you.

I am not - I have no more faith in DEFRA SEERAD or any other government
agency
I have done a lot of reading from many different source over the past 5 - 8
years when it started to become obvious that the situation in SE Asia was
not being controlled
I continue to do so on a day to day basis
I believe in having my own knowledge
Once informed it is then a personal choice as to how one interprets or
assesses the information, the risk and ones reaction


--


regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


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