Re: Chicken Lice?

pammyT wrote:
On 2 Mar, 10:44, "Jill" <n...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Many backyard chickens can have far more 'stress' than intensive
ones - most clearly illustrated by the fact that no outdoor bird
will lay as much as one inside.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here Jill. The reason outside
birds lay less eggs is NOT due to stress, but due to the fact that in
winiter they lay less eggs, if any at all due to them not being forced
to lay all year round by artificial lighting.Now THAT really causes
stress, yet still they lay.

I agree that is one other trigger that affects most backyard birds but even
when provided with light free range birds still cannot match their
sisterhood inside
Why does having light all year around cause stress?


- they have to cope with constantly changing weather and insufficient
shelter
Nonsense. They have plenty of shelter in the same houses they are shut
away in at night. Sometimes, they simply choose to stay outside in all
weathers.

Spending time too close and personal with other birds is stressful
Everyone knows that periods of prolonged confinement caused problems


- they have to cope with high volume, low nutrition food
Like layers pellets?

No - like bugs, grains, seeds, kitchen scraps, greens, etc
Many of the people who describe their birds as having been rescued and
having such a wonderful life outside do not just feed layers ration
I have this "conversation" daily with many emails I recieve - one today
about birds with probable feather pecking due to poor nutrition yet the
email was full of descriptors like treats, running free etc. Folks are
genuine about what they think is what chickens need. Often misguidedly



- they have to cope with overflying birds [which instinctively might
be predators]
I have never noticed any of my birds being stressed or upset by
overflying birds other than chasing the collared doves which land in
the runs. The would no doubt be upset by something up there which was
hovering and not flapping. (typical predator flight pattern)

Stress does not have to be a full flight response


- they have to cope with constant disease challenges from other wild
birds
Hmmm, a free range life able to eat growing grass, scratch for bugs,
dust bathe or sunbathe, or a nice sterile life in a battery safe from
wild bird germs? Which would I prefer?

Yes - but you are a sentient being
Anthropomorphism has no place is good animal behaviour studies


- they have to cope with the ever changing politics of a flock which
can be downright evil and canabalistic at times. [there are good
reasons for the terms hen-pecked and pecking order]

Not overcrowding and simple husbandry stop this behaviour.

You can have birds with acres of range and a big house still being dominant
and bullying
Any damage on a bird from any cause will be pounced upon swiftly

- they have to cope with being poorly bred for their conditions
Don't understand what you mean.

Intensive birds are very precisely bred for the environment -- there are
different strains for different parts of the world
Those same birds kept outside are not bred for their conditions

- they have to cope with being rarely treated properly for their
ailments
Most pet chicken owners I know, take their pets to the vet at the
first sign of something wrong.

Reading the emails I get and the thousands online on various places does
tell a different story

Most large scale breeders I know, wring
the sick bird's neck as it is cheaper to do so
..
And its swift biosecurity - a dead bird is not shedding more problems


[while most people will happily spend hundreds of pounds on their
cat which they got given; they will not spend ten pounds on taking a
bird that they have actually paid good money for to a professional.]
See above.

If it were true then folks would not have the problems they do have in
getting vets interest!


- they have to cope with often dying of painful conditions
["HenyPeny who we wescued went all quiet last week then she died in
her sleep, And she had been laying too" : = Properly translates as a
bird that should have been humane culled at the end of her last lay
had an egg crack inside her, causing a fatal peritonitis to develop
which killed her. ]

I agree, ill educated and overly sentimental people abound, but they
abound whatever species of animal they have the care of. It sadly
isn't exclusive to chickens.

But it seems to be considered much more acceptable in society generally
Mostly because of the over simplied idea that intensive is all bad adn free
range is all good

What I was trying to demonstrate [admittedly and intentionally in an overly
elaborate way] was that the whole issue is not so straightforward



The intensive bird has been bred to be very subdued and meek to
reduce aggression
And my pure bred birds are also non aggressive, but are not completely
docile. They are active and interested in their life.

Absolutely - but if you enclosed then in a small cage for two years they
would kill each other!
Thats what I mean
:)


A well run unit will have constant light patterns; constantly
regulated environmental controls, constant high value feed; low
noise; disease prevention measures;
The perfect factory in other words.

Yes -- to produce the sort of food that society wants to eat and pay for


A stressed bird stops laying.
No it doesn't. Battery hens have been proven to be stressed due to the
fact that they cannot perform instinctive natural behaviours, and that
the too close confinement with their cell mates means they have no
chance to escape a bully, yet they still lay.

Exactly what do you mean by "proven" to be stressed?


A chicken is hatched with the number of eggs she can produce already
inside her. Modern breeding aims to get as many of these made and
out in the first 2 years.
Some lay more than others (shrug) My cochins lay less than my
welsummers or Andalusians but their beauty more than makes up for
this.

And neither would make economic sense to feed a population


One of the consequences of breeding for high production has been a
weakness of the shell in each subsequent lay. This results in eggs
cracking inside and death by peritonitis. This as well as their
general weakness and much reduced productivity in the years after
their 2nd year of lay is the reason for them being slaughtered at
this time.
And we humans designed this awful thing. We should be ashamed. Or we
should stop buying battery eggs and stop the filthy business.

Well - the option has been there for over a generation
Its not taken up
To be honest badly run free range units are even more horrendous than
battery ones but then society can close their minds to that -- they can feel
virtuous about "letting the poor birdies free"



There are 40 million chickens in production in the UK and we import a
significant percentage of eggs. This is not a situation that can be
resolved with simplistic theories.

But if every other household was to keep a few pet chickens, there
would no need to import eggs since demand would go down.

And the disease in the national poultry flock would be horrendous - as would
the humans.

go to any SE Asian country
Go back to the 1950's when the mortality rate for most flocks was anything
up to 50% even in the good ones
Mycoplasmans; Salmonelas, there is a never ending list of trouble
Let alone the fact that its totally impractical
Only a small percentage of the population are good enough stockpeople to
look after animals well. Most are not interested and not capable.
For goodness sake we now have a pill coming out to treat obese dogs in this
country cos they are not getting enough walkies and too many treats -- I beg
their pardon -- and they do not see the irony !!!



The more people object to the vile industry
and start shopping sensibly,

Ahh -- folks are happy to object but are not doing the latter
They cannot do one without the other and that is what they are doing
So while they want good food as cheaply as possible then the best thing is
to support the industry in making the best of what we have.

If we are talking about unrealistic dreams then a lot less people in general
would be MUCH better but that is not going to happen either

the bigger chance there is of factory
farming to be stopped.

But factory farming is not going to stop while the population continues to
grow and the percentage of income spent on food continues to fall
All the noise does is stop production in this country and increase imports
This drives trade to countries and places where we have no control on
welfare, additives, conditions or transport.
The populace has destroyed British agriculture but then cry out when disease
is imported into this country to fulfill their demand for product

And it would stop if nobody bought what they
produced.

Not going to happen


They may have originated in the jungle, but pure breeds have been bred
and have evolved to live happily in our cooler damp climate.

They cope
No research has been done to be able to state scientifically that they are
"happy"

Certainly
cochins for example seemed to thrive in the very cold winters in
china, hence their feathery feet and fluffy insulating feathers.

Cold and dry
Its like Llamas and Angora goats have never produced the quality of fleece
and wool here as in their native conditions --- we are too wet.

Chickens are kept all over the world, including by nomadic tribes in
the Kalahari desert. To say that only chickens which live in as close
an environment as they originated from is nonsense.

I didn't -- I was describing an optimal
Chickens are UTTERLY REMARKABLE in their ability to cope with what Man has
inflicted upon it and still come up giving us just about the most important
food source we have.
My point is that this adaptability includes intensive farming when well run
and I would MUCH rather the effort was put into keeping track of places so
they are run to the very highest standards of welfare and biosecurity in
THIS country in a realistic and properly economic fashion than we end up
importing eggs from some godforsaken hovel carrying god knows what to all
the rest of the avian life in this country

I don't understand
why your chickens need to be tended day and night. Mine don't. At
dusk, they go into their houses to sleep and I come indoors. Perhaps
egg factory birds need night time attention? I don't know as much on
that subject as you do though so it is just an assumption.

In the industry Machinery does and so does the sorting and packing and
distribution
Don't confuse having a puckle of birds in a garden with what happens to put
food on the tables of the general population


From my own point of view. I have no interest in 'utility' breeds. I
prefer the many and wonderful differences of the purebred birds

We have many and wonderful different purebreeds -- and work on their
utility features which was the inspiration of the incredible breeders who
originated them
They are wonderful to look at.
:)


--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


.

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