Re: Chicken Lice?

0tterbot wrote:
"Jill" <news@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:45e87e74$0$8745$ed2619ec@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I agree that is one other trigger that affects most backyard birds
but even when provided with light free range birds still cannot
match their sisterhood inside

correlation is not causation. there are multiple factors to consider.

I agree
And stress is not always obvious
My point really is that most declarations of what is best for chickens is
very anthropomorphic.


Why does having light all year around cause stress?

perhaps "stress" isn't the right word - but if a hen is designed to
take a break from laying in winter for physiological reasons & is
denied that break, some people would not approve of that, and while i
might not agree i'd not dispute their disapproval, either.

Designed is a very good word
That is what the chicken is now -- designed by Man. It bears little
resemblance to anything "original" or wild. And its naive to consider it so.
Whether that is pompoms such that the bird cannot see; extreme feathering
such that the birds cannot be outside in normal conditions; or having a
short, highly productive life without a moult
All of these things are part of the genetic capability of the birds that Man
has used - in the case of the latter there is a overriding benefit to Man -
in the case of many of the other extremes it is fashion, fancy and 'cos they
could with no benefit to either Man or beast


- they have to cope with constantly changing weather and
insufficient shelter
Nonsense. They have plenty of shelter in the same houses they are
shut away in at night. Sometimes, they simply choose to stay
outside in all weathers.

Spending time too close and personal with other birds is stressful
Everyone knows that periods of prolonged confinement caused problems

i'm not sure what you are arguing here

I am not arguing anything
Just exploring the subject rather more than the usual fluffbunny
declarations ;)

- are you not claiming that
battery birds are kept as stress-free as possible, while also
allowing (unspoken) that they are in (ahem) "periods of prolonged
confinement"? so, which is it?

Battery birds are bred [designed if you wish] to be extremely docile and so
cope with the confinement without the aggression which would be shown if you
put most ofther chickens into the same conditions
[the previous answer was specifically about confining normal purebreeds in
close quarters]


undoubtedly battery birds' keepers try to keep their environment as
stress-free as possible _considering the circumstances_, but it can't
be without stress, because it's unnatural to their nature to be
confined thusly.

Using that arguement It is unnatural to have pompoms; Its unnatural to live
in temperate small gardens; its unnatural to be housed and washed for shows.
EVERYTHING about poultry keeping has been "unnatural" [or man managed] for
over 300 years



my chooks stay outside for as long as possible, in all weather except
when it's storming so hard they're actually getting drenched to the
skin. in the type of rain that drives me inside without thinking
twice, they stay outside. when we had a day of 42degrees-in-the-shade
heat, they stayed outside (in the dappled shade of trees, not in the
total shade of their house or outdoor shelter). they just like to be
outside, & that's all there is to it :-)

and if the breeds that make up the battery bird population do the same they
die in large numbers. Its happened when pophole doors have failed and birds
have got caught out in the rain. Over 60% can die overnight.

they do not think in terms
of laying or what's (purportedly) "good for them", they operate
according to what they naturally prefer,

You are giving them abilities they do not have.
They have not the sense of reason or to "think"


i put it to you that chickens know what they need.

I would disagree most wholeheartedly from many many case studies. Given the
choice chickens will mostly eat whole grains even if of a highly productive
strain. This results in them being undernourished for their output.
The effects can be various -- feather pecking; loss of production; anaemia;
even death.


laying pellets may be nutritionally balanced in strict technical
terms - yet ime it's not exactly their favourite food. this would
indicate that, perhaps or perhaps not nutritionally, there's
something "missing" they go looking for if they can. (my hens refuse
outright to eat it if it's in pellet form, even - i give it as a
mash). it may be textural, behavioural, or related to some other
factor.

No - it simply means that they do not "think" like humans do.
Their innate ability is to provide themselves with sufficient to maintain
themselves. Nothing more.
Man has designed them to provide more eggs than their ancestors would have
done; barring some of the weakest fancies.
The birds who give little more than their ancesters can survive perfectly
well on grains and range alone as long as the latter is extensive and varied
enough.
Any birds who have had their productivity improved at all will need better
nutrition to compensate.
Man has created the change and therefore we have to provide the necessary


one very small example - i reported here featherlessness amongst my
hens from bullying while they were caged for auction (and in one
case, bullying in general). i just couldn't get any improvement until
i started giving them extra protein - above & beyond laying pellets -
every single day. sometimes it's meat & sometimes it's blood-&-bone
meal & sometimes cooked soybeans & sometimes milk... but it's made a
massive difference.

Yes -- but then domestic layers ration is still relatively low in protein in
comparison to that of commercial birds.
Blood and bonemeal has long been known to be a superb tonic for birds.
Its a real shame we are no longer allowed to use it



Any damage on a bird from any cause will be pounced upon swiftly
(snip)

well of course it's not!! it depends on the bird, its place in the
hierarchy, and the tendencies of its companions!! a remark like that
is nonsensical because we can observe it's not true.

An open wound is rarely ignored by chickens


But if every other household was to keep a few pet chickens, there
would no need to import eggs since demand would go down.

And the disease in the national poultry flock would be horrendous -
as would the humans.

oh for goodness' sake. i can't even begin to fathom this continual and
relentless theme of "biosecurity",

Well - living in a country which has just had a very real incidence of Avian
Influenza due entirely to a serious lapse in biosecurity we take it very
seriously
We have been miraculously lucky that it seems that it was contained and, so
far, there is no evidence that the virus got into the wild bird population.
If it had, given the location and the very high density of poultry of all
management types in the immediate area the results would have been
devastating

but beyond that, a few points:

caring for livestock is mostly commonsense

From my experience dealing with peoples questions day in day out I have to
say that you are naive.
When you have someone with 3 teenage daughters genuinely ask you if the hens
need to be "started" by a cockerel before they buy them and many many other
questions which would come under your term of "commonsense" you learn to be
rather more pragmatic.

go to any SE Asian country

why?

To see what conditions birds live in when owned by a majority of a
population as a backyard entity. They would not come up to what would be
acceptible here.


Go back to the 1950's when the mortality rate for most flocks was
anything up to 50% even in the good ones

a quarter of a percent is still "up to 50%", so this is meaningless.

Sorry I was in a hurry to complete the post -- what I meant was averaging
around 50%


Mycoplasmans; Salmonelas, there is a never ending list of trouble

by my reading, the list of trouble is a great deal more limited than,
say, common human diseases... in fact, it's astonishingly brief...
but let's not quibble.

It wasn't and isn't


Let alone the fact that its totally impractical

clearly, only people interested in keeping <animal x> actually do so.

But the equation of home egg production, which was the point being
discussed, only works when the overriding majority do so. Otherwise you
have businesses farming for those who don't and you get back to the
situation we are in very quickly


(snip)
there is NEVER any one "right way" to do _anything_. if there was,

I would not dream of ever suggesting there is.
Equally many things that create so much uproar are never completely wrong
either

Its my training -- I am always looking around any subject -- There are
always at least 2 sides to any question and if you look hard enough you can
usually find more than that
;)

--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


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