Re: Chicken Lice?

0tterbot wrote:
My point really is that most declarations of what is best for
chickens is very anthropomorphic.

i'm sure some of them are awfully so :-) not sure about "most".

Maybe ;) I was thinking of the "fluffbunny" declarations. So much of what I
hear makes me cringe, as it does the birds in their care no service at all.

the people report that
eventually the battery hens begin to exhibit "normal hen" behaviour
based on no experience or observation.

Indeed. But no one has proven that without the ability to do this that the
hens "realise" they are bereft.
It gives birds consciousness that they simply do not have.


undoubtedly battery birds' keepers try to keep their environment as
stress-free as possible _considering the circumstances_, but it
can't be without stress, because it's unnatural to their nature to
be confined thusly.

Using that arguement

i'm not arguing either <g>
indeed ;)


It is unnatural to have pompoms; Its unnatural to live
in temperate small gardens; its unnatural to be housed and washed for
shows.
EVERYTHING about poultry keeping has been "unnatural" [or man
managed] for over 300 years

certainly. i suppose it depends on where the line is drawn - of what
is an acceptable trade-off to both species (which only one species
actually negotiates ;-),

Absolutely - there are no absolutes
Personally I find what is done to various pet species in the name of
fashion, and because they can, abhorant
Yet so many of the "fluffybunnies" can justify this.

as it were. i wish my hens could have a
really huuuuuge enclosure, but it's not possible at this time. so
they have _enough_ room (well, more than enough, really), and that's
fine. of course it's not "natural". but that's the line there, for me
(i live in a house even though that's not "natural"). i wouldn't find
a hen who can't see because of feathering to be "acceptable", nor
would i like to be washing and showing them. we just have to
negotiate what is acceptable amongst ourselves, don't we.

Yup - I find it interesting talking to our vet students about this all.
I am concerned how involved the veterinary world is becoming in the welfare
side of things when they get grossly insufficient training in the subject.
I want my vets to excell at making animals better when they are poorly --
not spend increasing amounts of time getting politically involved in things
that they have no experience in. The former is hard enough - its just about
the hardest profession there is, especially to keep up to date with all that
is new.
They do so little basic husbandry of all the species but almost nothing in
behaviour and such like.
Animal behaviour is a degree subject in itself and even then you only
collect the basics.
So little work has been done on poultry comparing systems in this way
There are some, frequently conflicting, often inconclusive, projects on
certain hormones
The breeding of the hybrids has certainly modified their behaviour a great
deal from their non-confined cousins.

You are giving them abilities they do not have.
They have not the sense of reason or to "think"

they have no sense of reason. they can think to some extent, because
they can be trained by operant conditioning. but my point was they
have the ability to "prefer" one thing over another.

Hmmm- prefer means "To choose or be in the habit of choosing as more
desirable or as having more value"
How is a chicken able to evaluate the cost / benefits of any activity?

How can they miss what is not stimulated?

One example is dustbathing [a popular cry for the anti intensive unit
folks] - this is an activity which helps to keep the feathers in good order.
However if the birds are kept in circumstances where they are not getting
wet, windy, dirty, dusty, there are no mites, etc, then the feathers are
going to need much less care? This is the sort of behavioural/ physiological
work that needs to be done to properly evaluate the "needs" that we
anthropomorphise. The new enhanced intensive units are going to have
dustbathes. However the birds are not outside so will they produce
sufficient oils to enable these to be used effectively?
There are thousands of domestic situations where a dustbath is not provided
yet these birds are outside having all these factors impinging on their
feathers. Which is more "cruel"

As I say -- there are more grey areas than clear ones and I hate the
categoric condemnation of systems when they are so poorly understood.


Well - living in a country which has just had a very real incidence
of Avian Influenza due entirely to a serious lapse in biosecurity we
take it very seriously
We have been miraculously lucky that it seems that it was contained
and, so far, there is no evidence that the virus got into the wild
bird population. If it had, given the location and the very high
density of poultry of all management types in the immediate area the
results would have been devastating

i'd say again - don't you think there's something _else_ awry, not
related to imports? something there appears (to a disinterested party
on the other side of the world) to be seriously awry because outbreak
after outbreak in what are _supposed_ to be "good" (biosecure??)
circumstances is a warning that there is something (else) wrong.

Yes -- the populations value on food ;) -- that is not going to change in a
hurry. ;(


i'd say that you deal with people who have dumb questions or lack
commonsense, and that is precisely why they are asking you.

Certainly a possibility for some, but does not cover all ;)


many things in s.e. asia wouldn't be acceptable here, & animal
husbandry methods are but a part of that. it doesn't mean that s.e.
asia is a living example of why people shouldn't have backyard
chooks.

The response was to the suggestions that "EVERYONE" should have them so as
to negate the requirement for intenisve units
Very different from people choosing to enjoy having birds in their gardens
or smallholdings etc. These are the ones who, as you rightly say, will bring
to the table some clue as to what they are letting themsevles in for and
inform themselves

progress does not mean interested parties shouldn't have backyard
hens

See above -- my response was to the ideas that all should have - whomever
and whereever.
A VERY different scenario.

i'm just not understanding you. i very much doubt anything like 50% of
households in australia have hens any more, but we don't import eggs
whatsoever.

We have been importing eggs since the early 1800's

[just to be really picky and cos I picked this up researching AI along the
way

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/Publishing.nsf/Content/health-avian_influenza-faq.htm
Q: Do we import eggs for consumption into Australia?
Answer: Australia does permit the importation of cooked, retorted (ie
commercially sterilised) eggs as well as a number of other products
containing egg. Only eggs and egg products that do not pose a risk of
introducing exotic diseases, including avian influenza, are permitted entry
into Australia. All imported and domestic egg products must be
pasteurised. ]
;)
But - yes - you have a seriously commendable system of protecting your
borders in Australia. It drives a lot of breeders nuts, mind <grin>

of course. but that means don't be so rigid about the "right" way,

What right way ? :) There are many ways to solve every problem, and many
more do deal with teh consequences of our choices !!


--

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment, Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


.

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