Re: Chicken Lice?

"Jill" <news@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:45e97c76$0$8744$ed2619ec@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

correlation is not causation. there are multiple factors to consider.

I agree
And stress is not always obvious
My point really is that most declarations of what is best for chickens is
very anthropomorphic.

i'm sure some of them are awfully so :-) not sure about "most".

Designed is a very good word
That is what the chicken is now -- designed by Man. It bears little
resemblance to anything "original" or wild. And its naive to consider it
so. (snip)

well, yes, but (hopefully without being TOO naive ;-), all domestic animals
could be described thusly, but they each still have innate traits, do they
not? and with no outlet for their innate traits, they must, logically,
experience some stress (although they cannot identify the stress/the cause),
unless there is some "consolation" for going without (i.e. something which
is offered as an alternative).

as an example, people can be astonished when their overbred domestic dog
exhibits "wild" traits with no warning. another - i have read numerous
stories of battery-hen rescues; the people report that eventually the
battery hens begin to exhibit "normal hen" behaviour based on no experience
or observation.

undoubtedly battery birds' keepers try to keep their environment as
stress-free as possible _considering the circumstances_, but it can't
be without stress, because it's unnatural to their nature to be
confined thusly.

Using that arguement

i'm not arguing either <g>

It is unnatural to have pompoms; Its unnatural to live
in temperate small gardens; its unnatural to be housed and washed for
shows.
EVERYTHING about poultry keeping has been "unnatural" [or man managed] for
over 300 years

certainly. i suppose it depends on where the line is drawn - of what is an
acceptable trade-off to both species (which only one species actually
negotiates ;-), as it were. i wish my hens could have a really huuuuuge
enclosure, but it's not possible at this time. so they have _enough_ room
(well, more than enough, really), and that's fine. of course it's not
"natural". but that's the line there, for me (i live in a house even though
that's not "natural"). i wouldn't find a hen who can't see because of
feathering to be "acceptable", nor would i like to be washing and showing
them. we just have to negotiate what is acceptable amongst ourselves, don't
we.

but, i DO think that some things really should be mandatory - and that would
include the ability to indulge in instinctive behaviours (the point here),
even though that also means including/allowing instinctive behaviours which
i, personally, find loathesome (e.g. bossing & bullying.) everything's a
compromise :-) what i'd mandate against (or for) if i was the queen is
different to what you would, or mrs-next-door, or whoever. so we all
compromise.

they do not think in terms
of laying or what's (purportedly) "good for them", they operate
according to what they naturally prefer,

You are giving them abilities they do not have.
They have not the sense of reason or to "think"

they have no sense of reason. they can think to some extent, because they
can be trained by operant conditioning. but my point was they have the
ability to "prefer" one thing over another.

No - it simply means that they do not "think" like humans do.
Their innate ability is to provide themselves with sufficient to maintain
themselves. Nothing more.

well, that's it. they don't WANT to be laying x eggs per year, WE want that
:-) it's not to say that they can't choose what will benefit THEM but not
necessarily us. (i don't know if i've stated this at all clearly, i've done
my best).

Yes -- but then domestic layers ration is still relatively low in protein
in comparison to that of commercial birds.

my point was really that what's "best" isn't actually always best at all -
it's very circumstantial.

Blood and bonemeal has long been known to be a superb tonic for birds.
Its a real shame we are no longer allowed to use it

indeed. although i personally find the hairs a bit disturbing <g>

An open wound is rarely ignored by chickens

well, i didn't know you meant open wounds specifically when you said
"damage".

oh for goodness' sake. i can't even begin to fathom this continual and
relentless theme of "biosecurity",

Well - living in a country which has just had a very real incidence of
Avian Influenza due entirely to a serious lapse in biosecurity we take it
very seriously
We have been miraculously lucky that it seems that it was contained and,
so far, there is no evidence that the virus got into the wild bird
population. If it had, given the location and the very high density of
poultry of all management types in the immediate area the results would
have been devastating

i'd say again - don't you think there's something _else_ awry, not related
to imports? something there appears (to a disinterested party on the other
side of the world) to be seriously awry because outbreak after outbreak in
what are _supposed_ to be "good" (biosecure??) circumstances is a warning
that there is something (else) wrong. focussing on biosecurity might be
looking for salvation in entirely the wrong place. dependence on biosecurity
alone is a response not unlike locking the gate after the horse has bolted.

caring for livestock is mostly commonsense

From my experience dealing with peoples questions day in day out I have to
say that you are naive.

i'd say that you deal with people who have dumb questions or lack
commonsense, and that is precisely why they are asking you. the people who
already know the answers or don't lack commonsense aren't asking you, are
they? :-)

caring for livestock IS mostly commonsense (part of which is knowing when to
ask someone else who is more expert). how else would one do it??

go to any SE Asian country

why?

To see what conditions birds live in when owned by a majority of a
population as a backyard entity. They would not come up to what would be
acceptible here.

many things in s.e. asia wouldn't be acceptable here, & animal husbandry
methods are but a part of that. it doesn't mean that s.e. asia is a living
example of why people shouldn't have backyard chooks. then again, you can
think about how (relatively) _little_ goes wrong in s.e. asian hen husbandry
when you consider the sheer scale...

Go back to the 1950's when the mortality rate for most flocks was
anything up to 50% even in the good ones

a quarter of a percent is still "up to 50%", so this is meaningless.

Sorry I was in a hurry to complete the post -- what I meant was averaging
around 50%

in australia it was 100%. because they got eaten on sundays <g>. as i said
before, progress is progress. the fact that we have made progress does not
mean interested parties shouldn't have backyard hens because that will turn
progress backwards. that's just nonsensical. my mum grew up in the 50s & had
to wear a thick woollen school uniform even in summer, and was beaten with
objects. that doesn't mean school should be outlawed - it means school
progressed (thank heavens). it's the same thing. comparisons don't work out
well sometimes because one must allow for progress, increased knowledge and
changes of attitude.

But the equation of home egg production, which was the point being
discussed, only works when the overriding majority do so. Otherwise you
have businesses farming for those who don't and you get back to the
situation we are in very quickly

i'm just not understanding you. i very much doubt anything like 50% of
households in australia have hens any more, but we don't import eggs
whatsoever.
?

Its my training -- I am always looking around any subject -- There are
always at least 2 sides to any question and if you look hard enough you
can usually find more than that
;)

of course. but that means don't be so rigid about the "right" way, surely!
kylie


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