Re: Another Electric fence question


"Ron Hardin" <rhhardin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:479A6096.47A7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Amy Blankenship wrote:

"Ron Hardin" <rhhardin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:479A0BF1.68C1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Amy Blankenship wrote:

"Ron Hardin" <rhhardin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4799F56C.67D3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Amy Blankenship wrote:
Professional trainers, the kind that take your dog and train him for
you,
not the
professional show trainers, tend to use Koehler. They want a method
that
works
on the dog you have, not the dog you trade up to.

Operant conditioning works on all organisms with a nervous system,
including
dolphins, humans, and chickens. Bob and Marion Bailey used to go
around
the
country running seminars teaching people how to do it using chickens
as
the
model. Apparently, if your timing is good enough where you can train
a
chicken, you can train anything.

-Amy

Yes I know. That only proves that Koehler isn't doing operant
conditioning,
which I would be the first to claim in fact.

Every training technique that works is operant conditioning on some
level.
It's just how scientifically you choose to use it, and hence what parts
you
focus on. Most trainers who have studied operant conditioning focus on
positive reinforcement and negative punishment, whereas Koehler focused
on
negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Both ways work, but one
way
is more effective no matter what species you are applying it to.

What is it called when you show a dog an exercise that he finds happiness
in?

First, a lot of what Koehlerian trainers think is happiness isn't. It's
stress and "please don't hurt me, I love you and I'm really trying." But
even if your interpretation is correct, is the dog happy because it has
figured out how to keep you from hurting it again? Or is it happy because
instead of hurting it, you're praising it, and it likes you in spite of
everything?

And there are some strange things to the operant conditioning way of
thinking.

Why, when the choke collar is used for corrections, is the dog eager to
stick
his head into it?

Why do people who have been held hostage often testify for them in court?

Something new to be learned! is the reaction.

Or, if I stick my head inside this thing, I get to go outside the house and
see new sights, no matter how much I may not like getting my neck yanked.

It's hardly negative as it's supposed to be, is it.

I guess if you're someone who can justify leaving chickens outside to freeze
and starve, this point is likely to be lost on you: there is _no_
justification to punishing _any_ thinking creature in order to teach it
something that you can teach it just as effectively _without_ punishing it.

Something is species specific to dogs about Koehler. You can reduce it
out,
and say it's all operant conditioning, but then you're reduced away the
interesting thing about it.

No, the thing that is species specific to Koehler is that it is species
specific to _us_. We are, as a culture, better able to comprehend
punishment than reinforcement. This is why some people cannot ever pick up
clicker training--they cannot divorce themselves far enough from their
punitive upbringing to figure out ways to teach things in a positive manner.
Many breeds of dogs and horses are different in that they have a higher
tolerance for learning by being punished for doing it wrong and can even
learn in those circumstances.

But where Koehler's methods are effective is on the human end. They require
very little exercise of the brain and what they do require is exactly in
line with how most Westerners were raised. And certainly they don't need to
be discussed further on this forum, since they don't actually work on
poultry.

-Amy


.

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