Re: Another Electric fence question

Amy Blankenship wrote:
"Ron Hardin" <rhhardin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:479A6096.47A7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Amy Blankenship wrote:

"Ron Hardin" <rhhardin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:479A0BF1.68C1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Amy Blankenship wrote:

"Ron Hardin" <rhhardin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4799F56C.67D3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Amy Blankenship wrote:
Professional trainers, the kind that take your dog and train him
for you,
not the
professional show trainers, tend to use Koehler. They want a
method that
works
on the dog you have, not the dog you trade up to.

Operant conditioning works on all organisms with a nervous system,
including
dolphins, humans, and chickens. Bob and Marion Bailey used to go
around
the
country running seminars teaching people how to do it using
chickens as
the
model. Apparently, if your timing is good enough where you can
train a
chicken, you can train anything.

-Amy

Yes I know. That only proves that Koehler isn't doing operant
conditioning,
which I would be the first to claim in fact.

Every training technique that works is operant conditioning on some
level.
It's just how scientifically you choose to use it, and hence what
parts you
focus on. Most trainers who have studied operant conditioning
focus on positive reinforcement and negative punishment, whereas
Koehler focused on
negative reinforcement and positive punishment. Both ways work,
but one way
is more effective no matter what species you are applying it to.

What is it called when you show a dog an exercise that he finds
happiness in?

First, a lot of what Koehlerian trainers think is happiness isn't. It's
stress and "please don't hurt me, I love you and I'm really
trying." But even if your interpretation is correct, is the dog
happy because it has figured out how to keep you from hurting it
again? Or is it happy because instead of hurting it, you're praising
it, and it likes you in spite of everything?

And there are some strange things to the operant conditioning way of
thinking.

Why, when the choke collar is used for corrections, is the dog eager
to stick
his head into it?

Why do people who have been held hostage often testify for them in
court?
Something new to be learned! is the reaction.

Or, if I stick my head inside this thing, I get to go outside the
house and see new sights, no matter how much I may not like getting
my neck yanked.
It's hardly negative as it's supposed to be, is it.

I guess if you're someone who can justify leaving chickens outside to
freeze and starve, this point is likely to be lost on you: there is
_no_ justification to punishing _any_ thinking creature in order to
teach it something that you can teach it just as effectively
_without_ punishing it.
Something is species specific to dogs about Koehler. You can reduce
it out,
and say it's all operant conditioning, but then you're reduced away
the interesting thing about it.

No, the thing that is species specific to Koehler is that it is
species specific to _us_. We are, as a culture, better able to
comprehend punishment than reinforcement. This is why some people
cannot ever pick up clicker training--they cannot divorce themselves
far enough from their punitive upbringing to figure out ways to teach
things in a positive manner. Many breeds of dogs and horses are
different in that they have a higher tolerance for learning by being
punished for doing it wrong and can even learn in those circumstances.

But where Koehler's methods are effective is on the human end. They
require very little exercise of the brain and what they do require is
exactly in line with how most Westerners were raised. And certainly
they don't need to be discussed further on this forum, since they
don't actually work on poultry.

-Amy

I killfiled Ron over the roosters. Please take this to email. It is now OT.




.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Prong collar convert
    ... I don't know any trainers that rely upon positive punishment. ... I'd wager that most people who get a dog for the first time use mostly PP to try to get their dogs to stop undesirable behaviors, and that this is one major contributor to the number of dogs who end up in shelters. ... His 'correction' for jumping entailed grabbing the dog's front paws and "gently" stepping on her toes. ... These all met my criterion for positive physical punishment - application of an aversive stimulus with the intent of stopping an undesired behavior. ...
    (rec.pets.dogs.behavior)
  • Re: Another Electric fence question
    ... Professional trainers, the kind that take your dog and train him for ... professional show trainers, tend to use Koehler. ... on the dog you have, not the dog you trade up to. ... That only proves that Koehler isn't doing operant ...
    (sci.agriculture.poultry)
  • Re: Another Electric fence question
    ... professional show trainers, tend to use Koehler. ... on the dog you have, not the dog you trade up to. ... That only proves that Koehler isn't doing operant ... negative reinforcement and positive punishment. ...
    (sci.agriculture.poultry)
  • Re: Computer
    ... I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn ... Lynn K. ... You cannot teach a dog to not want something, ... I didn't refer to Koehler and didn't ...
    (rec.pets.dogs.behavior)
  • Re: Computer
    ... I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn ... Lynn K. ... You cannot teach a dog to not want something, ... I didn't refer to Koehler and didn't ...
    (rec.pets.dogs.behavior)