savanna arguments (was Re: Bipedalism in different substrates

From: Marc Verhaegen (fa204466_at_skynet.be)
Date: 07/15/04 

Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:08:42 +0200

"Quitten McKrappen" <catwoma@hotmail.com> wrote his arguments in message
news:70a6a419.0407141737.3664f0eb@posting.google.com...
> Gods, Verhaegen,
> You are a pompous, insulting ***.

____

> "Marc Verhaegen" <fa204466@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:<40f582af$0$6413$a0ced6e1@news.skynet.be>...
> > "Jason Eshleman" <jae@ucdavis.edu> wrote in message
> > news:b7af43cb.0407131753.5db548d8@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > 1. Did our ancestors wade regularly? How do we know this or how could
we
> > know this?
> >
> > I think the man sincerely thinks he has relevant things to say, so I'll
have
> > to answer him. For the Xth time. Sigh.
> >
> > You mean: Did our Homo ancestors (= after the Homo/Pan split) once wade
> > regularly (as part of their locomotion)? BTW, this has nothing to do
with
> > apiths, only with Homo. Yes, no doubt. The comparative data. Human
bipedal
> > locomotion has typical traits: very long legs (longer than in apiths &
> > apes), plantigrady (more than in apes), striding (not hopping bipedalism
as,
> > eg, indris), with +- erect trunks (unlike indris, kangaroos, birds
except
> > penguins...) & straight body build (unlike most birds incl. flamingoes &
> > ostriches, except penguins). No doubt everybody agrees early great apes
were
> > at least partly suspensory. This can possibly explain our bipedality &
even
> > truncal erectness, but not or difficultly (cf.apes) our very long legs,
our
> > straight build & our plantigrady more than in apes. If these early
> > suspensory apes directly went to the ground (as the savanna believers
> > claim), they probably re-evolved quadrupedalism (cf. Afr.apes), but if
they
> > didn't (& apparently they didn't), they had evolved longer legs
(ostrich,
> > indri - seen in humans), less plantigrady (cursorials are digitigrade -
> > unlike humans), less erect trunks (to minimise drag cf. indris,
kangaroos
> > run with horizontal trunks - unlike humans). Our plantigrady can't be
> > explained by terrestrial cursorialism, nor by arboreal locomotion. Same
for
> > our straight build. IOW, other factors were involved. Swimming? Could
> > explain straight build & plantigrady, but not easily truncal erectness
> > (penguin) & very long legs (frog). Wading? Could explain truncal
erectness
> > (as easily explained by suspension), plantigrady, very long legs, but
not
> > very well straight build. IOW, all typically human features are nicely
> > explained by aquarborealism (Miocene apes: suspension, truncal
erectness,
> > plantigrady>OWMs) followed by seaside life with walking (v.long legs),
> > wading (v.long legs, plantigrady>apes, truncal erectness), swimming
> > (plantigrady, straight body) & reduction of climbing. Easy, no? Very
> > gradual, extremely logical. :-) If you have something better, let me
know.
> > When did this happen? IMO Pleistocene. Homo spp are found from Boxgrove
to
> > the Cape to Java & Flores. No reason why our ancestors could not have
lived
> > at the coasts once. That a lot of Homo fossils are found inland by no
means
> > contradict this: of course these coastal people could follow the rivers
&
> > lakes inland. Why not?
> >
> > > 2. While the environment may have made it possible, how do we know
that
> > this environmental association isn't a taphonomic bias?
> >
> > ??
> > The man now denies erectus is found on Flores, Java etc.!
> >
> > > 3. Are there other, clearly "unaquatic" creatures that similarly
inhabit
> > these same deposits?
> >
> > ??
> > Deposits?? What deposits?? Unaquatic creatures?? What do you want to
say?
> > really? Man, be relevant!
> >
> > > 4. As extant apes get in the water with great reluctance, what would
> > compel a protohominid to wade?
> >
> > ??
> > 1) The man denies the existence of seafood!
> > 2) What have extant apes to do with this??
> >
> > > 5. What resources are available to the waders that aren't available to
an
> > animal that wasn't wading?
> >
> > Why wouldn't wading be part of coastal adaptations?? Never seen
> > beach-combing people?
> >
> > > 6. Is there any evidence that hominids utilized these resources to any
> > appreciable degree?
> >
> > Ever heard of poly-unsaturated fatty acids? Apparently not. Ever heard
of
> > iodine? You may have read FAJ Muskiet cs.2004 "Is Docosahexaenoic Acid
(DHA)
> > Essential? Lessons from DHA Status Regulation, Our Ancient Diet,
> > Epidemiology and Randomized Controlled Trials" J.Nutr.134:183-6: "... It
is
> > more likely that they lived at the margins of lakes and rivers or at the
> > seashore ... wades the placid lakes and comes home with easily caught
fish,
> > seabird eggs, mollusks and other marine foods ..." If you haven't & are
> > really interested to read the paper (??), please let me know & I'll send
it
> > to you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > 7. Are these resources sufficient to dictate that a "wading ape"
niche,
> > where an ape spent and appreciable period of its time moving about in
the
> > water could exist?
> >
> > Man, for the Xth time, this is not about apes!! This is about early
Homo! Be
> > relevant!
> >
> > > 8. It's not sufficient to just say they're there. Resources cost
> > something to get. Since moving through water is energetically costly,
> > what's the real return on investment in trying to acquire these items?
> >
> > Food perhaps?? You never ate muscles?? shrimps?? Man, you're raving.
> >
> > > 9. Given that extant primates can (and do) wade without any
morphological
> > specializations
> >
> > Why do you claim this?? Becasue you don't see any, this doesn't mean
there
> > aren't any.
> >
> > >, why would it follow that hominids would have undergone some selective
> > change to a wading environment?
> >
> > To a seacoast environment, you mean? The degree of the seacoast
adaptations,
> > no doubt. What else?
> >
> > > 10. What particular selective changes would wading favor and why?
> >
> > Not drowning by putting your head underwater perhaps?? Man, what do you
want
> > to say. No blabla please. Why do you think you can't wade to find
seafood??
> > I suggest you inform a bit, eg, DL Oliver 1989 "Oceania - the Native
> > Cultures of Australia and the Pacific Islands" Vol.1 Univ.Hawaii Press
> > Honolulu, eg, p.261: "there appears to have been a fairly sharp division
of
> > fishing labour by sex: females did most of the gathering (usually by
hand or
> > probing stick) of mollusks, crayfish and other creatures found in
shallow
> > waters; males did most or all of the rest." Do you really think these
women
> > do this quadrupedally??
> >
> > > 11. Why haven't any other waders or aquatic foragers undergone the
changes
> > that the "wading hypothesis" says wading caused in our lineage?
> >
> > 1) Why do you claim no waders have??
> > 2) Again, this is not about wading alone, but about seaside adaptaitons,
> > okidoki?
> >
> > Ever heard of Cape otters (dextrous hands without webs)? Ever heard of
sea
> > otters (stone tool use)? Quadrupedal, of course: otters don't descend
from
> > aquarborealists. Ever heard of penguins (straight build, erect trunk,
> > plantigrady)? Ever heard of flamingoes (very long legs)? Etc. Etc. Etc.
> >
> > > 13. If the selective pressure isn't sufficient to alter the lower
> > extremities in deeper water, do forces exist in shallower water that
seem to
> > favor the suite of characteristics we share with the earliest
well-described
> > hominids?
> >
> > Blablabla. What do you want to say?? What "earliest well-described
hominids"
> > you mean?? Be relevant & clear, man.
> >
> > > 14. Given that extant apes have been reported to wade quadrupedally,
what
> > would be the incentive for an ape to move bipedally through shallow
water?
> >
> > ?? What on earth have extant apes to do with this?? Why wouldn't our
> > ancestors never have moved on 2 legs through the coastal waters?? You do
> > know that erectus tools have been found on Flores c 800 ka?
> > http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
> >
> > > 15. What's the energetic demand at different depths?
> >
> > I don't care.
> >
> > > 16. If the selective force is relative efficiency why, given that
> > selection for efficiency requires both a differential in efficiency in
the
> > particular environment and sufficient exposure to this differential
process,
> > would any given wading ape spend enough time in the particular selective
> > environment to present sufficient exposure to selective differences?
> >
> > Speak English or shut up. This is not about apes, man.
> >
> > > 17. Does this involve trips back and forth in and out of the water
(and if
> > so why would they do this given the high energy costs associated with
> > walking through water) or movement parallel to shore in relatively
shallow
> > water (and if so why would they do this given the high energy costs
> > associated with walking through water) and do any other creatures
practice
> > this type of behavior?
> >
> > Big words, no content.
> > Humans at the beach wade for food, man. See above Oliver. Didn't you
even
> > know this??
> >
> > > 18. Is there actually an appreciable difference in the efficiency of
> > bipedal wading between an ape and a bipedal hominid?
> >
> > Tell me. Or ask Algis. Whatever.
> >
> > > 19. Do any other organisms who wade regularly (eg many bears, some
> > monkeys) who are capable of facultative bipedalism show any
morphological
> > changes associated with making their wading stride more efficient?
> >
> > Tell me. You may start with comparing bears to apes: +-erect trunks,
braod
> > bodies, polar bear, Kolponomos, tail loss etc.
> >
> > > 20. Given that we *do* see other aquatic foragers, how are we similar
or
> > dissimilar?
> >
> > See above. Sea otters use stone tools. Flamingoes have very long legs.
> > Penguins walk bipedally & with straight bodies on land. Etc. Of course,
> > humans are unique, but you have to analyse human features, and then we
> > become less unique.
> >
> > > And no, there's not a model that's stood up to ALL of scrutiny.
> >
> > Ah?? Then why do you still fail to give 1 single little argument against
our
> > scenario??
> >
> > 1) Aquarboreal Apes Theory = hominoid evolution: Hominids (chimps,
humans
> > & gorillas) & pongids (orangs) split probably ~15 Ma, in the Miocene.
> > Miocene great ape fossils are found in coastal & swamp forests, eg,
> > Heliopith ~17 Ma, Griphopith 16-14, Oreopith ~8, Lufengpith ~12,
Dryopith
> > ~10 Ma. A climbing+wading lifestyle in such flooded forests explains how
> > they (starting from a more monkey-like body build: narrow thorax,
> > above-branch locomotion.) lost the tail (unexpected in arboreal
creatures),
> > became much larger (idem) & developed arm-hanging (below-branch
locomotion,
> > ie, climbing arms overhead) - features of apes, absent in most Old World
> > monkeys (except, to a limited extent, in Nasalis: this mangrove-dweller
is
> > the largest colobine monkey, the only one with a short tail, it
regularly
> > wades on 2 legs between mangrove trees, is a good swimmer, it sometimes
> > climbs arms overhead). The early apes were often thick-enameled &
possibly
> > used tools, IOW, they were durophagous frugi-omnivores: the diet
included
> > hard-shelled fruits, nuts, mangrove oysters etc. Pongids spread East
along
> > the Indian Ocean coasts. Hominids spread W & S along the Medit.& Red
Seas.
> > The African hominids that later went inland along rivers & lakes became
the
> > australopithecines & the African apes (chimps & gorillas). M.Verhaegen,
> > P-F.Puech & S.Munro 2002 "Aquarboreal ancestors?" Trends in Ecology &
> > Evolution 17:212-7.
> >
http://reviews.bmn.com/journals/atoz/latest?pii=S0169534702024904&node=TOC%40%40TREE%40017%4005%40017_05
> >
> > 2) Amphibious Ancestors Theory = Homo evolution: Alister Hardy ("Was
Man
> > more aquatic in the past?" NS 1960) described how a sea-side life -
> > beach-combing, wading, swimming, collecting coconuts, shellfish, turtles
&
> > turtle eggs, bird eggs, crabs, seaweeds etc. - explains many human
traits
> > (absent in our nearest relatives the chimps) a lot better than dry
savanna
> > scenarios do: very large brain (reduced olfactory bulb though), greater
> > breathing control & greater diving skills, small mouth & masticatory
> > reduction (myosine MYH16), well-developed vocality, extreme handiness &
tool
> > use, reduction of climbing skills, reduction of fur, more subcutaneous
fat,
> > very long legs, more linear body build, reduction of olfactory sense,
late
> > puberty, high needs of iodine, sodium & poly-unsaturated fatty acids
etc.
> > Hardy was wrong in thinking his seaside phase happened ~10 Ma. More
likely
> > it happened during the Ice Ages: early Pleistocene Homo fossils or tools
> > have been found in Israel, Algeria, Iran, Kenya, Georgia, Java, always
near
> > shellfish & seas & large bodies of water. When sea levels dropped,
> > H.ergaster followed the Mediterranean (pre-antecessor-neandertals) &
Indian
> > Ocean coasts (erectus). Pleistocene coasts during the glacial periods
were
> > some 120 m below the present sea level, so many fossil & archeological
finds
> > show the inland Homo populations that entered the continents along the
> > rivers & wetlands. In spite of this, Homo remains (but not
> > australopithecine) have frequently been found amid shells, corals,
barnacles
> > etc., throughout the Pleistocene, in coasts all over the Old World (eg,
> > Mojokerto, Terra Amata, Table Bay, Eritrea), even on islands that could
only
> > be reached by sea (Flores 0.8 Ma).
> >
> > Marc Verhaegen
> > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
> > http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/Verhaegen.html

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