Re: Article: Neanderthals Grow Fast, Die Young

From: Su Solomon (susol_at_zemail.com)
Date: 08/06/04 

Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2004 23:48:13 +1000

firstjois wrote:
>
> Su Solomon wrote:
> >> firstjois wrote:
> >>>
> >>> deowll wrote:
> >>>>> "Robert Karl Stonjek" <stonjek@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:guXNc.20930$K53.10893@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >>>>>> Neanderthals Grow Fast, Die Young
> >>>>>> By Jocelyn Selim
> >>>>>> July 26, 2004
> >>>>>>
> >>> [snip]
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However the real rate at which modern humans mature is all over
> >>>>> the ball park and as matter of culture the most widespread date
> >>>>> for marriage in most older cultures for moderns was 13 for girls
> >>>>> and a year or three more for males. One group went as low as 11
> >>>>> for girls with a smiliar reduction for males.
> >>>
> >>> Probably true and you know that when these things are discussed
> >>> they are usually discussed in terms of whatever is average. When
> >>> discussing the Neanderthals wouldn't there be some possibility of
> >>> greater uniformity than we have today? They lived in a pretty
> >>> small area, "standard" climate, ate the same foods, lived the same
> >>> way, and so on. We live all over the planet, eat all kinds of
> >>> different and weird stuff in different proportions - might make a
> >>> difference in maturation rates.
> >>>
> >>> Jois
> >>
> >>
> >> Jois,
> >>
> >> Australian Aboriginal teeth eruption pattern is much earlier then
> >> ours. Eleven to twelve yr old girls, who are still pre-pubescent,
> >> have all their adult teeth at this age.
> >>
> >> So I guess, if you have all your teeth at a youngish age, then the
> >> tooth enamel would also reflect this. Australian Aborigines do
> >> live to ages commensurate with ours, providing they receive the same
> >> health care, or are still living a fairly good hunter-gatherer
> >> lifestyle.
> >>
> >> People I lived with for over 5 years (Southern Pitjantjantantjara)
> >> had a number of their population over the age of 80 (that is out of a
> >> community of about 60 people, there were 8 that I knew of that were
> >> this age, and a similar number who were healthy 70 yr olds) Mind
> >> you all these people had been born in the bush, had led traditional
> >> lives and had had minimal European contact (apart from the testing
> >> of the A-Bomb at Maralinga!)
> >>
> >> So, if we are going to say that Neanderthals appeared to live short
> >> brutish lives, achieving adulthood at a young age, then what are we
> >> to say of Aborigines who have an early tooth eruption (and one must
> >> assume an concommitant tooth enamel history) without an early
> >> pubescence and managing to live, on the whole, to a hearty old age?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Su
>
> Yep, that's part of what makes these newsgroups so much fun!
>
> While the article made the connection between fast growth and early death,
> it stipulated (and I hope it stipulated this in the research as well) "Peak
> Maturity" and saying roughly that the ages for the Paleolithic is about the
> same as our own. I think that means the sealing off of the epithesis of
> the long bones - don't do much growing taller after that. If we average
> male and female then maybe 18-20 years of age is pretty much on target for
> "Peak Maturity."
>
> Deowl brought up marriage but age of marriage and peak maturity are
> different. We can still marry at age 6 or seven and still have babies at
> 11-12 but we won't hit that peak maturity until later on. (Might be
> different for pygmies since they don't have that second growth explosion
> and they end up with "normal sized" heads and trunks and shortened arms and
> legs. Then you might have to look at teeth to say "Peak Maturity" for I'd
> guess their epithesis of long bones seal up earlier.) Anyway, I wanted to
> kick the discussion (if there were one) from age of marriage to just plain
> old fashioned maturity.
>
> I don't think that there is a tie in between " grow fast" and "die young"
> and from reading Jocelyn Selim's article

Hi Jois,

All I saw was an 'abstract' that was posted on here

Have you get the whole article?

> I wonder if the researchers did
> either - they were looking at the cost of early growth.

>From what I read, they assumed that peak maturity was indicated by tooth
enamel, and as I said, Australian Aborigines teeth erupt earlier then
ours, thus the tooth enamel would give the same picture. But we know
that is not so. A 12 yr old girl will have full dentition, but she
will be prebuscent and will not have her first child till about the age
of 15-16 or older.

The cost of early growth in Aborigines would be the same.

> The cost of early
> growth and maturation might be too tough to meet in "fluctuating climatic
> or other (unexpected?) conditions." I don't know how well that idea would
> stand up since every group would have difficulties in "fluctuating climatic
> or other conditions."

Natch.

>
> And to those poor little 11-12 year old girls who have all their adult
> teeth? Ouch!

No ouches at all, they have nice big teeth, and nice big dental
capacity, unlike us with our crowded teeth and all those problems with
"wisdom teeth" : )

> How about boys? Do they have all their adult teeth by 11-12?

A bit later (oh I do have to stop punning : ) males reach full maturity
a few years later, like in our times.

> Nearly
> everyone I know has their wisdoms removed prior to or shortly after
> eruption - wisdoms growing sideways, up-side-down, or pushing other teeth
> because there is no room for them.

Yup, we have paid the price for smaller faces.

> Oh, I could never live in "Southern Pitjantjantantjara" could neither say
> nor spell it!

The place I lived at was called Tjuntjuntjarra (roughly pronounced:
joonjoonjarra, or doondoondarra - the "tj" sound, which comes out like a
cross between a "j" and a "d" is produced by holding the tongue up
against the palate) the language group is Southern Pitjantjantjara. And
I think you would love it, great place (if you are into deserts), great
people with a good sense of humour.
 
> Glad to see you are in Mikey's group!

Seems like a great group, despite Phils warning that it was dull !!

Cheers,

Su

>
> Jois
>
> --
> I suspect that no amount of reason will affect the wading hypothesis one
> jot.
>
> Michael Clark
> 021904

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