Re: Article: Neanderthals Grow Fast, Die Young

From: Daryl Habel (Dar_83001_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 08/08/04 

Date: 8 Aug 2004 04:24:45 -0700

Philip Deitiker <Donevenask@worlnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<zOhRc.185602$OB3.114640@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
> "Anne Gilbert" <kebara@comcast.net> says in
> news:MbWdncjvEpc6BYjcRVn-sA@comcast.com:
>
> > Philip:
> >
> >> Brace denies even the possibility that Neandertals could
> >> have been a different species. I thought you said you
> >> didn't follow him. Where are those neandertal genes? Su
> >> has clearly stated she has no interest in what the
> >> genetics say. Is this also your position?
> >
> > I don't, exactly, follow him. But I don't think
> > Neandertals were a "separate species", either. What I was
> > referring to was the apparent reduction in tooth and jaw
> > size, which was something Su was also referring to, and has
> > or had to do with improvements in tools, cooking,, etc.,
> > which was also what Brace was referring to. What I *don't*
> > follow Brace on, is his idea that N's somehow evolved into
> > "modern" humans in Europe. I think they were a distinct
> > *population*, wh ich isn't necessarily the same thing as
> > their being a distinct *species*. For which I will
> > doubtless, as usual on this list, get a lot of flak. But
> > I'm going to stand my ground on it. Anne G
>
> This is a denial of the chronological changes in morphology,
> even as humans were showing up on the periphery of europe
> Neandertals were deriving into Classic Neandertals with even
> more distinct morphology from humans.
>
> I have yet to see a single marker. mtDNA, Y or HLA that
> suggests that neandertals could interbreed with humans. In fact
> europeans in particular can trace more of their ancestry
> recently back to africa relative to any other non-african
> people. HLA in europeans are quite diverse and alot of
> recombination has occurred, HLA are also maintained by
> heterozygous selection coefficients, and at least until modern
> times things like gliadin selection was not a factor, even so
> Super B8 with DQ 2.5 spread with the Norse even if it was
> counter selective. Therefore I want to know specifically why you
> think Neandertals could have interbred, where is this evidence.
> Is this just Anne still dreaming that neandertals were
> culturally fit to compete with humans, that they some how
> survived. If your neandertals are anywhere I would think you
> would be looking at mongolia or siberia. They aren't in europe.
> Europe shows several lines of 'flushing' migration from africa
> directly into iberia and points north, as well as at least 2
> waves from middle east.
> 2 component plots of HLA haplotypes show a continuous line all
> the way from Central africa to Eastern Siberia. They only
> discontinuity in those plots are between east africa and
> Austronesia. The focal point of the african lines is the same
> place as the focal point of the mtDNA which is the same place as
> the focal point of the X-linked data.
> The only possible scenario of how the neandertals might have
> survived is if they moved to southern India or austronesia and
> at a genetic ratio of about 1:50 or less interbred with humans
> in that region of the world. There is ABSOLUTELY no genetic
> evidence suggesting that a prehuman erectoid derivative living
> in europe interbred with humans, none, period.

Well, of course they are a minority, but a lot of people would say you
are obfuscating the "evidence" for no interbreeding with a passle of
irrelevant genetics. First of all, the only genetic evidence that
points strongly toward no interbreeding is the mtDNA evidence, where a
half-dozen successfully recovered Neanderthal sequences do gather in a
separate clade from modern humans. However, you can trace your spread
of HLA and Y evidence from today's populations backwards yada-yada to
wherever you want, but you have no genetic information on Neanderthal
Y or HLA, nor any autosomal genetic evidence from Neanderthal, to
which this modern-day HLA and Y evidence can be applied as evidence
against interbreeding. In other words, all you have is mtDNA, and
everyone pretty much admits that by itself mtDNA cannot prove no
interbreeding.

While it is true (your last sentence) that there is no genetic
evidence suggesting archaics could interbreed with your "humans", it
seems to me just as reasonable to say you can't genetically prove it
didn't, at least occasionally, occur, either. There seems to be lot
of possible demographic movement by African-derived morphology into
Eurasia during the Upper Pleistocene, and possible, even probable in
some cases, replacement of local populations, but even allowing for a
lot of replacement, that by itself doesn't necessarily prove one
species totally replaced another. Depends on where you draw the
"species" line in the sand. You've convinced yourself of a pretty
rigid definition of "human", asnd you're entitled to your opinion of
course. But please don't throw this HLA and Y stuff at me as evidence
for no interbreeding. You'll have to do better than that to convince
me to take _your_ "human" differences more seriously.

With all due respect,
Dar

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