Re: Article: Neanderthals Grow Fast, Die Young

From: Anne Gilbert (kebara_at_comcast.net)
Date: 08/08/04 

Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 11:02:17 -0700

Philip and Dar:

I would have to take DAr's side on this one. What the mtDNA evidence seems
to suggest is, that *most* of the ancestry of "modern" humans derives from
Africa. But, as several prominent geneticists and biological anthropologists
have suggested, it doesn't either prove or disprove the possibility of
interbreeding between various distinct human populations. FWIW, Alan
Templeton's latest foray into this area, back in 2002, seems to suggest
three major migration OoA, with subsequent spread of "African" genes to
"indigenous" populations in Eurasia. The "modern human" migration, or
whatever it was, which took place around 150 kyr ago, was only the latest of
these. Certainly people like Templeton are in the "minority", but I
personally also happen to think that the "dominant" interpretation of the
genetic evidence simply can't be ether proven or disproven, and neither can
one say, for sure, that interbreeding between various groups of humans
*never* took place. It certainly seems to take place between closely
related species when barriers which had previously separated them, break
down.
Anne G

> Well, of course they are a minority, but a lot of people would say you
> are obfuscating the "evidence" for no interbreeding with a passle of
> irrelevant genetics. First of all, the only genetic evidence that
> points strongly toward no interbreeding is the mtDNA evidence, where a
> half-dozen successfully recovered Neanderthal sequences do gather in a
> separate clade from modern humans. However, you can trace your spread
> of HLA and Y evidence from today's populations backwards yada-yada to
> wherever you want, but you have no genetic information on Neanderthal
> Y or HLA, nor any autosomal genetic evidence from Neanderthal, to
> which this modern-day HLA and Y evidence can be applied as evidence
> against interbreeding. In other words, all you have is mtDNA, and
> everyone pretty much admits that by itself mtDNA cannot prove no
> interbreeding.
>
> While it is true (your last sentence) that there is no genetic
> evidence suggesting archaics could interbreed with your "humans", it
> seems to me just as reasonable to say you can't genetically prove it
> didn't, at least occasionally, occur, either. There seems to be lot
> of possible demographic movement by African-derived morphology into
> Eurasia during the Upper Pleistocene, and possible, even probable in
> some cases, replacement of local populations, but even allowing for a
> lot of replacement, that by itself doesn't necessarily prove one
> species totally replaced another. Depends on where you draw the
> "species" line in the sand. You've convinced yourself of a pretty
> rigid definition of "human", asnd you're entitled to your opinion of
> course. But please don't throw this HLA and Y stuff at me as evidence
> for no interbreeding. You'll have to do better than that to convince
> me to take _your_ "human" differences more seriously.
>
> With all due respect,
> Dar 

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Article: Neanderthals Grow Fast, Die Young
    ... as several prominent geneticists and biological ... > interbreeding between various distinct human populations. ... > genetic evidence simply can't be ether proven or disproven, ... I believe it is safe to say that the point of expansion for the Mtdna was ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Pope - I have the answer.
    ... Although bacteria simply multiply by dividing into two, they also often exchange genetic material, usually by releasing small fragments called plasmids which can be absorbed by nearby bacteria. ... So can bacteria be made by scientists from basic chemicals in a completly domant sterile environment. ... As you know Francis Collins is one of the leading geneticists in the world, having been the director of the Human Genome Project for many years, co-ordinating the work of thousands of geneticists across the world. ... the same way that you haven't provided a single shred of evidence for god's existence. ...
    (uk.sport.football.clubs.liverpool)
  • Re: Pope - I have the answer.
    ... Although bacteria simply multiply by dividing into two, they also often exchange genetic material, usually by releasing small fragments called plasmids which can be absorbed by nearby bacteria. ... So can bacteria be made by scientists from basic chemicals in a completly domant sterile environment. ... As you know Francis Collins is one of the leading geneticists in the world, having been the director of the Human Genome Project for many years, co-ordinating the work of thousands of geneticists across the world. ... the same way that you haven't provided a single shred of evidence for god's existence. ...
    (uk.sport.football.clubs.liverpool)
  • Re: Pope - I have the answer.
    ... So can bacteria be made by scientists from basic chemicals in a completly domant sterile environment. ... As you know Francis Collins is one of the leading geneticists in the world, having been the director of the Human Genome Project for many years, co-ordinating the work of thousands of geneticists across the world. ... They don't count do they Pope? ... the same way that you haven't provided a single shred of evidence for god's existence. ...
    (uk.sport.football.clubs.liverpool)
  • Re: Pope - I have the answer.
    ... Although bacteria simply multiply by dividing into two, they also often exchange genetic material, usually by releasing small fragments called plasmids which can be absorbed by nearby bacteria. ... So can bacteria be made by scientists from basic chemicals in a completly domant sterile environment. ... As you know Francis Collins is one of the leading geneticists in the world, having been the director of the Human Genome Project for many years, co-ordinating the work of thousands of geneticists across the world. ... much the same way that you haven't provided a single shred of evidence for god's existence. ...
    (uk.sport.football.clubs.liverpool)