Re: Is SCIENCE magazine 2 or more years behind; Re: Orrorin

From: Rich Travsky (traRvEsky_at_hotMOVEmail.com)
Date: 09/13/04 

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:33:10 -0600

Mario Petrinovich wrote:
>
> J Moore:
> > I'm sorry, Mario, but this info is very well known and comes from
> > research.
> > Chimps do throw well, as do other primates besides humans -- your
> > contention
> > that they don't runs counter to many observations over many decades.
>
> Ok. What is, for you, throwing well? No2: Well for what purpose?

Throwing well: hit your target.
Purpose? To hit something. This is obvious.

> I am convinced that you are convinced that this is true. Only,
> anybody realistic cannot be convinced that chimps are defending themselves
> by throwing stones. And throw well enough to be able to defend themselves. I
> never heard of such thing. I even never heard anything close to this. I only
> heard fairy tales. Fairy tales which was ready to acquire anybody who wonted
> something like this to be true. -- Mario

Are you claiming chimps can't throw?

 http://www.janegoodall.ca/inst/inst_gombe_frodo.html
 ...
 Frodo soon became something of a bully. He was not well liked by other
 chimps - or human observers. He become one of Gombe's few accurate stone
 throwers!
 ...

And here's something Marc (of all people) posted:
 Frans de Waal [evol-psych] 22.9.01: "Now, please, don't
 believe everything you hear about apes not throwing. Darwin
 was talking about monkeys, and Goodall's chimps may not have
 had much practice. In all research facilities with
 chimpanzees it is known how well apes throw. This is why
 projectiles are kept away from them, and why they mostly work
 with feces. They are deadly accurate, they swing around from
 the back of their cage and invariably "nail" the one new face
 in the crowd with deadly accuracy. Ask any worker in such a
 facility: it's not rare, and no illusion! Out in the open,
 their skills are even more striking. I used to photograph the
 Arnhem chimpanzees from across the moat, where they were at
 about 10 m from me. I had to be extremely careful because
 young males tended to throw extremely well. They would see my
 eye go behind the camera, and all of a sudden it turned out
 they had a stone with them which they'd throw at me. Males
 more than females, mostly overhand. (Another tidbit in the
 debate whether they know if our eyes are for seeing or not
 .). Then there was the mother who came to the reception with
 her crying son. She complained that our chimps threw stones.
 After questioning and an account by a bystander it turned out
 that the boy had thrown first, and that the same stone had
 come back to him. The estimated distance of this case was 25
 m. In short, the idea that apes can't throw is bogus. It has
 been around for a long time, but should be tested with apes
 who have had target practice. I invite all man-the-thrower
 advocates for a visit - at least if they don't mind some
 smelly stuff coming their way!"

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