Re: PZ on Bird/Frog Development -- Great article -- Should it be an FAQ?

From: Dr.GH (garyhard_at_earthlink.net)
Date: 09/13/04 

Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:40:31 +0000 (UTC)

Harlequin <usenet@cox.net> wrote in message news:<bozotic-Xns9561D8D7C1578usenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>...
> Augray <augray@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> news:lr36k0p6fis3nb15ft2ge8j2g5kuhc4005@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:34:15 +0000 (UTC), Harlequin <usenet@cox.net>
> > wrote in
> > news:<bozotic-Xns955F945E541FDusenet123mmcablecom@68.12.19.6>:
> >
> >> Dr. PZ Myers who certainly no stranger here has posted
> >> a great article debunking some common creationists claims
> >> regarding development regarding birds and frogs. In particular
> >> he debunks the creationists claim that bird can't be
> >> descended from dinosaurs since birds have the wrong digits.
> >>
> >> http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/digit_numbering_and_limb_d
> >> evelo pment/
> >> http://makeashorterlink.com/?S4A825149
> >>
> >> I think this would make a very good FAQ if PZ is agreeable.
> >> Others added their comments to the article saying much the
> >> same. The Archive could certainly also use more articles on
> >> development. Any comments?
> >
> > I'd suggest comparing the reader's _left_ hand with the hand of
> > _Deinonychus_, just to keep things simple.
> >
> > I'd also suggest removing the "Take me, Jesus, I have seen the
> > ligh?oh, wait a minute" bit. I'll admit that it's funny, but probably
> > counter-productive.
>
> I tend to agree.
>
> > I'm also puzzled that Myers didn't refer to the example in Wagner &
> > Gauthier of kiwis sometimes showing a shift in digit identity. Such an
> > example, shown to a creationist, might bring the concept out of the
> > "realm of fantasy" into objective reality, and be the example that
> > will convince him/her.
>
> That is interesting and would be worth the addition. Clearly
> real life examples tend to be more convincing than even
> well-grounded theory for most people. This will be PZ's choice
> of course. Of course we have also the option of adding something
> Augray to the file if PZ and Augray want to go that way.
>
> > Also, Wagner & Gauthier is available on-line at
> > http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/9/5111 or at
> > http://www.lifesci.utexas.edu/courses/bio478L/ReadingsPDF/Gauthier.pdf
>
> I had already caught caught and linked to it in my conversion of PZ's
> article to T.O. format.
>
> > And finally, Myers makes use of illustrations from Wagner & Gauthier,
> > and if there are copyright problems involved, I'd be happy to redraw
> > them.
>
> Maybe they should be acknowledged. Frankly, I really can't see
> them objecting. The claw image is fairly common type image and
> the cladogram is certainly fair use.

Wagner & Gauthier thanked Alan Gishlick (of NCSE fame) for his
computer graphics and cladogram. I can't imagine Alan objecting.