Re: What is the Aquatic theory?

From: J Moore (anthrosciguy_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 09/21/04 

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:12:48 GMT

Algis Kuliukas <algis@RiverApes.com> wrote in message
news:77a70442.0409140741.40ce9d20@posting.google.com...
> "J Moore" <anthrosciguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<0cn1d.420900$gE.131064@pd7tw3no>...
> > Algis Kuliukas <algis@RiverApes.com> wrote in message
> > news:77a70442.0409120431.30038f20@posting.google.com...
> > > "J Moore" <anthrosciguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:<4cO0d.396323$gE.286961@pd7tw3no>...
> > > > Algis Kuliukas <algis@RiverApes.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:77a70442.0409110233.576d4dea@posting.google.com...
>
<much snipped -- I snipped a lot here because the whole thing is pretty
tedious (Algis will say it's because of me, and what can I say, I have this
bad habit of correcting people and they find it tedious >

> > (http://www.gatorswimteam.org/2004/5/breaststroke.html) I've always
been
> > amused at these explanations of AAT/H swimming styles -- the "hair
tracts
> > method" which requires you to swim with the crown of your head facing
> > forward and your arms at your sides, or the "AAT/H variation
breaststroke"
> > where the entire head, including beard, is held out of the water -- and
> > these are supposed to be high speed swimming strokes to account for hair
> > loss, too!
>
> Hominids probably swam with a variety of strokes just like we do
> today, just like we have a variety of terrestrial modes of locomotion
> too. You're exaggerating again, as always.

Jump in a pool and swimm with your head completely out of the water (leave
enough room for a beard to be out of water too). Try it. Then look at
Robin Williams (the Fisher King is a good place to look) and tell me how he
swims with no body hair in the water. This ad hoc swimming stuff for the
body hair just doesn't fit with the actual state of body hair and head hair
for humans. You also need to learn a bit more about sexual selection too,
it seems.

> [..]
> > > You completely avoided my question. What ecological scenario would
> > > have allowed this sexual selection positive feedback loop to cause
> > > such a marked difference between humans and chimps?
> > >
> > > No I'm not comparing to seals and whales. People that are fatter are
> > > less likely to drown than people who are thinner. It's called
> > > buoyancy.
> >
> > This idea is not borne out by comparisons to other aquatic mammals --
except
> > of course to seals, whales, and sirenia, and even there Pond points out
that
> > their fat seems adapted to shaping for streamlining along with the
general
> > use of fat, in all animals, as a food store.
>
> You just want to keep bringing on the seals, even though they're a
> side issue. Humans that are fat are less likely to drown than those
> that are skinny. It's simply a mater of increased buoyancy.

So you say that all those years of AAT/H claims about "aquatics" and where
we find fat and hairlessness and sweat etc., are just, what, not operative?
Nonsense? Ignore the man behind the curtain?

<much snipped>

> > And this is your "parsimonious" idea? Can you say "ad hoc"?
>
> Well why don't you answer my question and state the orthodox paradigm
> suggestion for explaining this. When no other primate uses nakedness
> and fatness for sexual selection, how come our species suddenly did?

We aren't "naked", you really have to look at just what we have, not what
you wish it to be. Really, I don't see any sign that you want to look at
this, either. (And who said suddenly?) I'm not stating the "orthodox" or
"paradigm" or whatever -- I am, as I've many times stated, simply looking at
the AAT/H claims and see if they're accurate and make sense. Even if, for
instance, every single thought and hypothesis that ahs been generally
accepted in human evolution became miraculously invalid, it wouldn't make
any other idea true, or even more likely. Your idea has to stand on its
own. This is something where you're following Morgan's lead, and it's a
false method (it's also uncomfortably like the primary method used by
creationists).

> [..]
> > > I don't need fully aquatic animals to show that more fat in humans
> > > makes you more bouyant and less likely to drown.
> > >
> > > I don't need them to show that shaving body hair off a human reduces
> > > drag significantly in water and that hair reduction aids dip/sweat
> > > cooling.
> >
> > You use our present body (and head) hair as evidence of an aquatic
past --
> > aquatic to some vaguely stated degree of "more". But of course our
present
> > condition -- the state that AAT/H proponents says this vaguely-defined
> > aquaticness created -- turns out to be just exactly what competitive
> > swimmers don't want -- they go either for hair removal or (and/or) body
> > suits that mimic the effect of hair or dermal ridges. If we can speed
up
> > our swimming by removing our body and head hair, how is it that our body
and
> > head hair were adapted to swimming speedily?
>
> 'Speedily' is a twist. Less drag makes it more efficient, more durable
> as well as faster. How do you know that hairier men are not slower
> than less hairy men, all other things being equal? Are you just
> guessing?

Are you? You are the one with the new theory you want accepted. Why is it
that in all the decades of AAT/H scenarios being bandied about, with
swimming and body hair at or near the center, did no one look at the studies
done on it until I did? Why did you, for instance, find it on my site
instead of at the library years earlier? Why didn't Morgan? And this is
degree-worthy scholarship?

<much snipped>

> > Ahh, again with the "they were just trying to get you to think" idea --
so
> > beloved ofthe pseudoscience crowd -- I'd think you might want to try to
> > avoid that particular association by not using their tactics.
>
> Well if you actually read Hardy and Morgan you'd have realised that
> this is exactly what they said they were doing...
>
> "My thesis is, of course, only a speculation - an hypothesis to be
> discussed and tested against further lines of evidence. Such ideas are
> useful only if they stimulate fresh inquiries which may bring us
> nearer the truth." Hardy (1960:645)

As I said, this is a classic dodge by pseudoscience types and not something
you really want to be emulating, and your assumption is of course that Hardy
and Morgan didn't make anyone think simply because when they did think, they
didn't come up with the conclusion you guys wanted them to.

<much snipped>

> > This
> > "association" of nakedness and fat and "aquatic factors", though, is
seen
> > only in seals, whales, and sirenia -- sorry, but you guys are the ones
> > dragging them back into the argument all the time. True, you don't like
to
> > actually mention them by name, but then that's a tad disingenuous (to be
> > polite).
>
> No, forget them. Please.

When the AAT/H stops using as evidence features found only in them, we can
all stop, since that also knocks out the AAT/H.

<much snipped>

> I think it's only fair to judge Hardy on what he wrote in 1960, not in
> 1977. That's not ageist, it's just being fair minded.

But when someone even mentions something Morgan wrote in her early works
that an AAT/H proponent doesn't like, that's a non-no. But when you mention
something written later, then it's the earlier stuff that's gold. You folks
do so much zinging around it's dizzying.

<much snipped again> 

--
JMoore
__
For a scientific critique of the aquatic ape theory, go to
www.aquaticape.org

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