Re: moore blabla (Re: Is SCIENCE magazine 2 or more years behind; Re: Orrorin

From: J Moore (anthrosciguy_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/15/04 

Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:26:20 GMT

Mario Petrinovich <mario.petrinovic1@zg.htnet.hr> wrote in message
news:cknras$95s$2@ls219.htnet.hr...
> J Moore:
> > Mario Petrinovich:
> >> J Moore:
> >> > When you presented that argument, besides pointing out that penguins
> >> > are not
> >> > like fish at all, I also pointed out that penguin posture is not what
> >> > you
> >> > thought it was either. This notion arose because various AAT/H
> >> > proponents
> >> > have attempted to show some similarity between various aquatic
animals
> >> > and
> >> > humans in posture, generally suggesting that human pelvises are
similar
> >> > to
> >> > those of various aquatic animals. But in fact virtually all aquatic
> >> > animals
> >> > have quite narrow pelvises while humans' pelvises are wide. This is
> >> > true in
> >> > the case of penguins, and more directly, they do not have "straight"
> >> > posture
> >> > when you look at their skeletons here's a cut and paste of that part
of
> >> > my reply (Sci.bio.evolution):
> >> >
> >> > **
> >> > No, penguins are NOT similar to us, and I'm not talking about the
many
> >> > ways
> >> > they are dissimilar other than their walking posture and their
pelvis.
> >> > They
> >> > do not hold their legs in a very straight line directly under them as
> >> > they
> >> > walk, but rather more like most quadrupedal mammals do when they walk
> >> > bipedally (like monkeys for instance). From their hips, their upper
> >> > leg is
> >> > generally held forward and bent a lot at the knee; so the lower part
of
> >> > their legs are vertical -- to see this you have to look at a
skeleton.
> >> > When
> >> > you do, you also see that their pelvis is also extremely unlike ours;
> >> > for
> >> > one thing, like most swimming animals, it's very narrow, while ours
and
> >> > that
> >> > of our hominid ancestors is rather wide. (In fact, the pelvis of a
> >> > penguin
> >> > isn't all that different from that of a pigeon, although other
parts --
> >> > esp.
> >> > the breastbone and wing/flippers are quite different due to the
> >> > different
> >> > needs of flying and swimming creatures.) OTOH, we have near
relatives
> >> > we do
> >> > hold their legs in the manner you think penguins do (gibbons and
> >> > siamangs,
> >> > and to an extent, orangs and spider monkeys). I'm not saying that we
> >> > necessarily had ancestors who behaved just like those apes and
monkeys,
> >> > but
> >> > doesn't that seem far more likely than us being like penguins,
> >> > especially
> >> > when you consider that in reality, as opposed to the musings of AAT
> >> > proponents, penguins's pelvises and walking posture are very
different
> >> > from ours?
> >> > **
> >> >
> >
http://www.google.ca/groups?q=penguins+author:j+author:moore&hl=en&lr=&safe=
> >> >
> >
off&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=1&as_miny=2004&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=10&as_max
> >> > y=2004&selm=bu7bla%241r00%241%40darwin.ediacara.org&rnum=1
> >> > **
> >> >
> >> > And yes, I point out that "Mario is uninformed" -- because you are.
If
> >> > you
> >> > want people to stop pointing out that you are uninformed, you have
two
> >> > options -- you can scream at them until they stop (not effective) or
> >> > stop
> >> > being uninformed (quite effective). It's your choice, but shooting
the
> >> > messenger doesn't work, especially when you're shooting blanks.
> >>
> >> I am the first one to admit that I am pretty uninformed. I am
not
> >> "that much" uninformed, as you might think, though. I didn't wrote
those
> >> things to prove that I am informed. But, Rick understood our discussion
> >> seriously, and it wasn't serious. It was just what I wrote. You took my
> >> words out of context, and try to make fun of them, as such (out of
> >> context).
> >> Regarding our discussion about penguins. I don't remember it
very
> >> good (and am too lazy to re-read it again). I don't think that I was
> >> talking
> >> about pelvis, or skeleton, at all. You tried to suck any sense out of
my
> >> words (theory). This was false understanding of it, which led to false
> >> presentation of whole situation, later.
> >> Again, as any 6 year old kid can see, penguins and we are not
so
> >> dissimilar (and not only because of their coat). And penguins are not
> >> like
> >> other birds, regarding posture. Their body is upright, not horizontal.
> >> Body
> >> of plunge diving cormorants is also very upraight. They have covered
> >> nostrils, and they have something like tears. All those things are
> >> adaptation to plunge diving. And with all those things we are similar.
> >> Again, while all birds have their body horizontal, those birds
> >> changed this. Why? Because of forces comming in axial direction of
body.
> >> Body becomes adapted to those forces. Muscles became adapted to them.
> >> And,
> >> after some time, animal feels better if it holds its body in a position
> >> its
> >> muscles are adapted for. Not to mention that birds which live in water,
> >> (pelicans, penguins), also have SC fat (IIRC). This is another striking
> >> similarity. We have a lot of similarity to those birds. I don't want to
> >> offend anybody, but only a fool can neglect it.
> >> Again, we do have bipedal primates (sifaka). And apes can walk
> >> bipedally. And a lot of hopping animals are bipedal. And birds, after
> >> all.
> >> For that you don't need such a straight body, as we have (look at
> >> ostrich,
> >> very fast bipedal). The reason why penguins hold their body upright
> >> doesn't have anything, eaither with pelvis, or with skeleton. -- Mario
> >
> > As my post pointed out, the posture and stance of penguins is remarkably
> > different from that of humans. Look at a skeleton and see what they
look
> > like. -- JMoore
>
> You said in your post that penguin skeleton is like of quadrupedal
> mammals. And that penguin pelvis is like that of a pigeon. And I ask you,
> are you nuts? You are looking at penguins, and you are seeing quadrupedal
> mammal, and pigeon-like bird? While every sane person see upright straight
> body.
<snipped>

I said: "They do not hold their legs in a very straight line directly under
them as they walk, but rather more like most quadrupedal mammals do when
they walk bipedally (like monkeys for instance). From their hips, their
upper leg is generally held forward and bent a lot at the knee; so the lower
part of their legs are vertical -- to see this you have to look at a
skeleton." This is true. 

--
JMoore
__
For a scientific critique of the aquatic ape theory, go to
www.aquaticape.org

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