Re: Ape theories & Aquaticism

From: Charles (lmno_at_mindspring.com)
Date: 10/20/04 

Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:03:22 GMT

"J Moore" <anthrosciguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:DSedd.153757$a41.4607@pd7tw2no...
> Pauline M Ross <pmross@ross-software.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:mohan053vq84vtuso4m2cc5ig9trp48el0@4ax.com...
>> On 19 Oct 2004 07:54:08 -0700, algis@RiverApes.com (Algis Kuliukas)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> >[Pauline] As for the jockeys, a quick Google turned up
>> >> >> only an obsession with weight and diet, nothing about swimming. I
>> >> >> am
>> >> >> tempted to follow Jason's lead and ask if this is a 'fact' or
>> >> >> anecdotal?
>> >
>> >I note that JE doesn't pull up JM for using anecdotal evidence, only
>> >you, Pauline. What was that term use to describe this kind of
>> >thing...?
>>
>> Actually, I have no problem at all with anecdotal evidence, so long as
>> it isn't simply emanating from a bloke in a pub. In so many areas of
>> human (and ape) physiology, there is so little hard evidence that
>> anecdotal is all there is. But when someone asserts, as Jim did, that
>> jockeys swim regularly and still stay skinny, in contradiction of any
>> amount of other (anecdotal and research-based) evidence, I'd like to
>> know whether that's coming from peer-reviewed research or his second
>> cousin knows someone who knows a jockey who swims occasionally.
>> >
>> >> >[Jim] I first mentioend this because Algis had followed the mistaken
> lead of
>> >> >others in claiming that chimps couldn't swim because of their density
> and
>> >> >relative lack of body fat; the example of jockeys demonstrates that
> this is
>> >> >not so.
>> >
>> >I'm not going to get into the 'chimps can't swim... oh yes they can!,
>> >oh no they can't!' debate again.
>>
>> Yes. I seem to recall having a discussion with someone (probably Jim)
>> on the exact meaning of the word 'can' in this context :-) The stuff
>> we end up talking about.....
>>
>> >I conceded that there was one
>> >anecdotal incident reported in Attenborough's 'Life of Mammals' which
>> >suggested that one male chimp, was reported to have swam, maybe, for a
>> >few metres' so technically I agree that perhaps chimps *can* swim... a
>> >bit, sometimes.
>>
>> Actually, the anecdotal evidence of both zoo-keepers and
>> primatologists is that chimps *don't* swim and (in many cases) that
>> they *can't* swim. There are quotes from such people out in
>> Google-land which state quite categorically that chimps can't swim
>> because they don't have enough body fat!

I was until age 26 extremely skinny. once had less than 2% body fat as
measured by immersion. but I have always been a very good swimmer. I think
i do float better now that i am significantly heavier, but that is only
anecdotal & conjecture. and "so what" too.
    I do recall that Algis typically argues that the question is not why
they DON'T swim as much as it is a question of why WE do swim more than
chimps. this is, IMHO, a reasonable question for science to address. my
own stumble-in to this list involves trying to figure out why our children
are so obsessively attracted to water and sand. Indeed, sand and water play
is required by law in my state for children 0 to 3 years old. ... I still
don't know... if the truth be known. I guess I could ask why chimp babies
are interested in playing with poop.
    I am not attached to any of the details or theories so constantly
discussed; the only meager evidence we have are a few fossils. I am not
impressed by snorkel noses! A coherent theory will have to account for the
hss love of water and the chimpanzee aversion to it because it is likely,
again IMHO, that the lca had an aversion to water.
 --charles

>
> As pointed out before, the general statement was that chimps cannot swim,
> and all it takes is one chimp to do so to show this isn't correct. They
> don't as a rule, that's for sure, and no one I've heard of has disputed
> that -- I have seen someone dispute the fact that chimps ~can~ swim
> despite
> that person having previously mentioned a swimming chimp. To attempt to
> say
> why chimps don't oridinarily swim, the general statement has also been
> made
> that it's because of their body fat, and that this low body fat makes them
> incapable of swimming. That's where I mentioned the counterexample of
> jockeys, who can swim despite having very little, often unhealthy levels
> of,
> body fat. I had seen a few links before when I was looking at that, but
> didn't save them (or can't find them in the maze of links I have saved
> over
> the years), but here's a couple of web sites talking about jockeys
> swimming,
> one about a jockey's training methods
> (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/19/1092889280144.html?from=storyrhs&
> oneclick=true) and another on a series of biographical sketches wherein
> several guys list swimming as a hobby
> (http://www.aro.co.za/images/sajockeyacademy/apprenticejockeys.html). The
> thing is, despite people saying that chimps don't swim because of their
> level of body fat, we can see that this isn't true. This doesn't mean
> that
> they do regularly swim, or even that many or most of them could if they
> tried (and after all, many humans can't, even with much higher levels of
> body fat) -- it just means that the reason usually given for chimps not
> swimming is a myth, a widely believed myth perhaps, like the "10% of your
> brain" myth or the "drink 8 glasses of water a day" myth, but a myth
> nonetheless. Before you ask why something is so, you should first ask if
> it
> really is so -- this is something that people obviously haven't done in
> the
> case of asking why chimps don't swim.
>
> --
> JMoore
> __
> For a scientific critique of the aquatic ape theory, go to
> www.aquaticape.org
>
>> But to be honest, I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to
>> swim *at all* - they generally don't, but then they have very little
>> need to. They avoid water, but if sufficiently motivated they will go
>> into it, so it's quite likely they would be able to learn to swim if
>> they became accustomed to the water and the incentive was strong
>> enough. I think that probably accounts for the one recorded case -
>> unusual, but he had become habituated to water by the peculiar
>> circumstances.
>>
>> >What I wrote earlier in this thread about chimps was this: "If it's
>> >true that being fatter makes you less likely to drown then it seems
>> >perfectly reasonable to argue that our undoubted greater adipocity
>> >compared to all the primates and especially chimpanzees, could be
>> >explained by some selection from greater exposure to this risk of
>> >death."
>> >I still think it's reasonable to argue that.
>>
>> I agree (*IF* being fatter makes you less likely to drown). It's
>> certainly a plausible line of enquiry.
>>
>> >As to the relevance of
>> >jockeys in this debate, whether they swim a lot or not... [Snip]
>> > Do you have any data on this, or
>> >are you just clutching at straws, Jim?
>>
>> >It couldn't be... (could it?)... another False Fact?
>>
>> Let's wait and see if he answers the question about where his
>> information comes from before drawing any conclusions :-)
>>
>> --
>> Pauline Ross
>>
>
>

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Ape theories & Aquaticism
    ... >> water as if they were the only things is being dishonest. ... Chimps don't "hate" water, although this is a common idea. ... They don't swim regularly, in fact they ... But the question is is this due to body fat, ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Ape theories & Aquaticism
    ... Pauline M Ross wrote in message ... >>humans and chimps that allow us to do something that they can't. ... > can't swim because they don't have sufficient body fat (as Algis did ... > can and do swim. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: STAY FAT, STAY BUOYANT,
    ... >> I do think that stating that certain humans with little body fat can ... >> fact is that those humans can and do swim, as, for that matter, did I ... > forty-five year old I float in the water effortlessly, ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Ape theories & Aquaticism
    ... > Actually, I have no problem at all with anecdotal evidence, so long as ... > jockeys swim regularly and still stay skinny, ... As pointed out before, the general statement was that chimps cannot swim, ... that it's because of their body fat, and that this low body fat makes them ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Ape theories & Aquaticism
    ... <snip most of body fat discussion... ... >> want to touch and feel and splash in water. ... observe the child, determine whether he/she is in the concious or ... They don't swim regularly, in fact ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
Quantcast