Re: Ape theories & Aquaticism

From: J Moore (anthrosciguy_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/20/04 

Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:50:00 GMT

Charles <lmno@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:_zkdd.3220$ta5.625@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "J Moore" <anthrosciguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:DSedd.153757$a41.4607@pd7tw2no...
> > Pauline M Ross <pmross@ross-software.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:mohan053vq84vtuso4m2cc5ig9trp48el0@4ax.com...
> >> On 19 Oct 2004 07:54:08 -0700, algis@RiverApes.com (Algis Kuliukas)
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >[Pauline] As for the jockeys, a quick Google turned up
> >> >> >> only an obsession with weight and diet, nothing about swimming. I
> >> >> >> am
> >> >> >> tempted to follow Jason's lead and ask if this is a 'fact' or
> >> >> >> anecdotal?
> >> >
> >> >I note that JE doesn't pull up JM for using anecdotal evidence, only
> >> >you, Pauline. What was that term use to describe this kind of
> >> >thing...?
> >>
> >> Actually, I have no problem at all with anecdotal evidence, so long as
> >> it isn't simply emanating from a bloke in a pub. In so many areas of
> >> human (and ape) physiology, there is so little hard evidence that
> >> anecdotal is all there is. But when someone asserts, as Jim did, that
> >> jockeys swim regularly and still stay skinny, in contradiction of any
> >> amount of other (anecdotal and research-based) evidence, I'd like to
> >> know whether that's coming from peer-reviewed research or his second
> >> cousin knows someone who knows a jockey who swims occasionally.
> >> >
> >> >> >[Jim] I first mentioend this because Algis had followed the
mistaken
> > lead of
> >> >> >others in claiming that chimps couldn't swim because of their
density
> > and
> >> >> >relative lack of body fat; the example of jockeys demonstrates that
> > this is
> >> >> >not so.
> >> >
> >> >I'm not going to get into the 'chimps can't swim... oh yes they can!,
> >> >oh no they can't!' debate again.
> >>
> >> Yes. I seem to recall having a discussion with someone (probably Jim)
> >> on the exact meaning of the word 'can' in this context :-) The stuff
> >> we end up talking about.....
> >>
> >> >I conceded that there was one
> >> >anecdotal incident reported in Attenborough's 'Life of Mammals' which
> >> >suggested that one male chimp, was reported to have swam, maybe, for a
> >> >few metres' so technically I agree that perhaps chimps *can* swim... a
> >> >bit, sometimes.
> >>
> >> Actually, the anecdotal evidence of both zoo-keepers and
> >> primatologists is that chimps *don't* swim and (in many cases) that
> >> they *can't* swim. There are quotes from such people out in
> >> Google-land which state quite categorically that chimps can't swim
> >> because they don't have enough body fat!
>
> I was until age 26 extremely skinny. once had less than 2% body fat as
> measured by immersion. but I have always been a very good swimmer. I
think
> i do float better now that i am significantly heavier, but that is only
> anecdotal & conjecture. and "so what" too.
> I do recall that Algis typically argues that the question is not why
> they DON'T swim as much as it is a question of why WE do swim more than
> chimps. this is, IMHO, a reasonable question for science to address. my
> own stumble-in to this list involves trying to figure out why our children
> are so obsessively attracted to water and sand. Indeed, sand and water
play
> is required by law in my state for children 0 to 3 years old. ... I still
> don't know... if the truth be known. I guess I could ask why chimp babies
> are interested in playing with poop.
> I am not attached to any of the details or theories so constantly
> discussed; the only meager evidence we have are a few fossils. I am not
> impressed by snorkel noses! A coherent theory will have to account for
the
> hss love of water and the chimpanzee aversion to it because it is likely,
> again IMHO, that the lca had an aversion to water.
> --charles

Yes, you could ask why kids like to play in dirt, in mud, why they love to
swimg, why they put trash in their mouths, why when they get older they like
to jump off things, etc., etc. There are a lot of things kids like, and
that adults like, so asking why only about those things that have to do with
water as if they were the only things is being dishonest.

The issue of why we swim more than chimps do, by quite a lot, is
interesting, but then why do various other primates also do so? This isn't
something unique to humans. The thing about body fat is that it isn't the
reason, as the example of jockeys shows, as well as things like your example
(and I was also in that position, being extremely lean -- leaner than most
of my peers, who were mostly typically lean youngsters -- during the years
when I learned to swim). The body fat argument regarding chimps rarely
swimming has been often given, but no matter how often it's said, and no
matter how many people have said it, it's still wrong. 

--
JMoore
__
For a scientific critique of the aquatic ape theory, go to
www.aquaticape.org
<smipped>

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