Re: Bipedal Orrorin?

From: J Moore (anthrosciguy_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 10/20/04 

Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:01:59 GMT

Pauline M Ross <pmross@ross-software.co.uk> wrote in message
news:531cn0dvj7l7ft4hmn4pfelj4b0cdf4aej@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:38:16 GMT, "J Moore" <anthrosciguy@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> >[Jim] "Aquaskeptics" point this out because AAT/H proponents often
claim that
> >your statement is true when it is not -- it's that simple.
> >>
> >> [Pauline] Well, you're going to have to explain to me exactly *which*
statement
> >> you're talking about here. I've made a number of statements in the
> >> stuff you quoted, and there's nothing to indicate which one you mean.
>
> >I'm sorry, I didn't repeat it in every post in this portion of the
thread,
> >as I thought you'd get it from the quoted part where I said "This
particular
> >statement ("the most common reason for reduced fur is aquaticism")..."
>
> OK, so you're basically ignoring my long explanation and simply
> re-asserting that I'm wrong. Let me try this one more time.
>
> Firstly, let's drop "reason" - no one knows the actual reason why any
> species lost its fur, so there shouldn't by any confusion, but let me
> reword it anyway: the commonest correlation/association/factor in
> reduced fur is aquaticism.
>
> Now let's start again. If you want to understand furlessness in
> mammals, it seems reasonable to look first at all those species which
> actually have reduced fur, right? And if you do that, and add up the
> number of species, you find that the majority are aquatic (to some
> degree). You also find that a number are large-bodied (which includes
> some of the aquatics), and that, of the non-aquatics, many are
> tropical. So that gives you three possible factors associated with
> reduced fur, and the *most common is aquaticism*. And if you do this
> more correctly (ie phylogenetically rather than by species numbers) as
> Algis has done, you get the same result - the most common factor is
> aquaticism.
>
> Aquasceptics like to say: aquaticism obviously isn't a factor because
> look at all those seals and otters... but this is a red herring. You
> don't learn about furlessness by looking first at aquatic species, any
> more than you would start with marsupials if you want to learn about
> bipedalism. The seals and otters are significant because they suggest
> that there is no single factor involved: most of them are polar or
> sub-polar (ie not tropical) and the three largest pinnipeds are
> furless (ie large body size).
>
> That is why I say that reduced fur in humans very likely results from
> multiple causes, including tropicality and perhaps large body size,
> but aquaticism is likely to be the strongest factor.
>
> --
> Pauline Ross

I pointed out, or tried to, that correlations are merely a start that might
make you wonder why (and you should really make sure the correlation is
correct as a first step). (Of the largest pinnipeds, btw, only the walrus
is thinly haired, although many seals look hairless when they're wet -- and
I think Marc has incorrectly claimed that Steller's sea lions are hairless
except for the male's mane.) Anyway, once you have a correlation, you can
look at the whys and wherefores, and this is where we get into the
conflicting evidence for hair and drag in swimming, and where AAT/H
proponents tend to ignore contrary evidence, not to mention our head hair,
not to mention (again with the not mentioning :) the plentiful body hair
that some of us have. "Aquaticism" is not a trait or a behavior or really
anything with explanatory power unless you're trying for a homeopathic-type
explanation of magical properties of water -- and I hope you're not doing
that. :) 

--
JMoore
__
For a scientific critique of the aquatic ape theory, go to
www.aquaticape.org

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Bipedal Orrorin?
    ... species lost its fur, so there shouldn't by any confusion, but let me ... reduced fur is aquaticism. ... and the *most common is aquaticism*. ... multiple causes, including tropicality and perhaps large body size, ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Bipedal Orrorin?
    ... not a cause or reason for this reduced fur or body hair. ... aquatic the species and/or the larger the body size and/or the more ... Of these three factors, aquaticism has the strongest association, ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Bipedalism in different substrates
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  • Re: Bipedalism in different substrates
    ... >> useless for that purpose in water, so an aquatic species clearly has ... >> less need to maintain the expense of the fur. ... >> species have actually lost some or all of their fur, ... aquaticism is the *most likely* cause of human hairlessness. ...
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  • Re: Bipedal Orrorin?
    ... sort) was the strongest correlation. ... but in both cases aquaticism was the most common ... Well, the exact causes for reduced fur are unknown, all we can do is ... find a plausible explanation for human hairlessness - sweat-cooling? ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)