Re: Ape theories & Aquaticism

From: Charles (lmno_at_mindspring.com)
Date: 10/22/04 

Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 01:16:09 GMT

"J Moore" <anthrosciguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:IHHdd.166904$a41.64342@pd7tw2no...
> Charles <lmno@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:FWFdd.3008$5i5.1048@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

<snip most of body fat discussion... we essentially agree on this>

>> >> I do recall that Algis typically argues that the question is not
> why
>> >> they DON'T swim as much as it is a question of why WE do swim more
>> >> than
>> >> chimps. this is, IMHO, a reasonable question for science to address.
> my
>> >> own stumble-in to this list involves trying to figure out why our
>> >> children
>> >> are so obsessively attracted to water and sand. Indeed, sand and
>> >> water
>> > play
>> >> is required by law in my state for children 0 to 3 years old. ... I
>> >> still
>> >> don't know... if the truth be known. I guess I could ask why chimp
>> >> babies
>> >> are interested in playing with poop.
>> >> I am not attached to any of the details or theories so constantly
>> >> discussed; the only meager evidence we have are a few fossils. I am
> not
>> >> impressed by snorkel noses! A coherent theory will have to account
>> >> for
>> > the
>> >> hss love of water and the chimpanzee aversion to it because it is
> likely,
>> >> again IMHO, that the lca had an aversion to water.
>> >> --charles
>> >
>> > Yes, you could ask why kids like to play in dirt, in mud, why they love
> to
>> > swimg, why they put trash in their mouths, why when they get older they
>> > like
>> > to jump off things, etc., etc. There are a lot of things kids like,
>> > and
>> > that adults like, so asking why only about those things that have to do
>> > with
>> > water as if they were the only things is being dishonest.
>>
>> No, it isn't. It is a real observation of infant-toddler children. They
>> want to touch and feel and splash in water. Only a few activities rival
>> this preoccupation at certain ages... fascination with small objects,
>> language, in and out (or put and take it is sometimes called).
>> One good and possible explanation is that humans are born as
> scientists:
>> we want to fiugre out everything in our environment from the very
>> start...
>> and water is one of them. but it is an ironic twist that the water
>> fascination kicks in just as we are beginning to burn our baby fat.
>> oh! in case you're interested, this is my life work, and the best
>> answer i have for it is "I don't know."
>
> Well, I do think it's dishonest to say that of the many things children
> (and
> adult humans) are interested in that the only things that are important
> are
> those dealing with water. Assuming that an interest in water and water
> should be treated as a special case worthy of study while all other
> interests are ignored is foolish, not that it isn't done often enough.
> And
> the reason it's foolish is that considering those interests concerning
> water and only those is going to make whatever conclusions you come up
> with
> wrong.

I really can't go to deep <chuckle> into this subject because it is OT for
sap. also, some of it is available from my early posts a couple years ago.
i don't think you were posting at that precise moment.
    I am an Infant Toddler Montessori Teacher. So that is both the
background and the bias from which i speak. It is an often observed
(really... constantly observed) fact that a child that is having trouble
concentrating will "learn" to concentrate by giving them water to experiment
in. Any Montessori teacher will tell you this. And that is what we do: we
teach children HOW to concentrate, how to learn, how to remain curious about
the world. To state this concept in Montessori-ese, I would say: we
observe the child, determine whether he/she is in the concious or
unconscious absorbent mind, and which sensitive period is presenting itself,
then design the environment accordingly. We control the ENVIRONMENT, not
the child, and by this process, the whole class becomes normalized.
    Now it so happens that all children are interested in "playing" in water
between *about* 6 months of age and 4 years old.
    so the question, for me, remains. Why? is this hardwired into the hss
brain? (and I am one that believes that language, for example, IS
hardwired.)
    more>>>

>
>> > The issue of why we swim more than chimps do, by quite a lot, is
>> > interesting, but then why do various other primates also do so? This
>> > isn't
>> > something unique to humans.
>>
>> I agree. An interesting thing to ponder along these lines is why do some
>> animals seem to "hate" water, i.e., the domestic cat. Does the chimp
> "hate"
>> water for a similar reason? some sort of anti-grooming ritual? fear of
>> alligators? doesn't want to muss up its hair-do?
>
> Chimps don't "hate" water, although this is a common idea. I've had to
> point this out, with a reference from a 1980 paper by Nishida, and I did
> so
> first back in 1996 it seems
> (http://www.google.ca/groups?selm=6119.6672T613T1717%40inforamp.net&oe=UTF-8
> &) and again this past spring
> (http://www.google.ca/groups?q=nishida+water++author:moore&hl=en&lr=&safe=of
> f&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=2003&as_maxd=20&as_maxm=10&as_maxy=
> 2004&selm=tiekc.294797%24Pk3.20070%40pd7tw1no&rnum=1). This is an example
> of the way that false facts keep coming around and have to be corrected
> again and again. It just isn't so. They don't swim regularly, in fact
> they
> seem to swim very rarely, but they do wade and are not so adverse to water
> as is often thought. As Nishida pointed out (and this is 24 years ago
> now):
> "No hypothesis of innate fear specially oriented towards water seems
> appropriate or necessary. It is also notable that both civilized and
> uncivilized people without shoes tend to select the drier part of a path,
> if
> available, avoiding rain puddles (personal observation). The Mbuti
> pygmies
> of the Ituri Forest avoid puddles in the path [Harako, personal commun.].
> By these criteria, ~if hydrophobia is innate in chimpanzess, it must also
> be
> in mankind~.

Excellent point. thanks!

but of course... i am forever the skeptic, the doubter, the quesitoner....
if most apes ARE generalists, what do you think was the environmental
pressure that selected bipedalism, language, relative-nakedness, large
brain, etc. ?
--charles

It indicates the versatility of great apes and negates
> general antipathy to water in great apes; gorillas, pygmy chimpanzees and
> common chimpanzees have been observed to enter the water in at least one
> locality of Africa, respectively." (Nishida 1980:206-207, from Toshisada
> Nishida 1980 "Local Differences in Responses to water among Wild
> Chimpanzees" ~Folia Primatologica~ 33:189-209).
>
>> The thing about body fat is that it isn't the
>> > reason, as the example of jockeys shows, as well as things like your
>> > example
>>
>> I am 6'3" and weighed 155 pounds. now i am at 230 pounds and lift
>> weights....
>>
>> > (and I was also in that position, being extremely lean -- leaner than
> most
>> > of my peers, who were mostly typically lean youngsters -- during the
> years
>> > when I learned to swim). The body fat argument regarding chimps rarely
>> > swimming has been often given, but no matter how often it's said, and
>> > no
>> > matter how many people have said it, it's still wrong.
>>
>> I am not certain it has ever been tested or reported. I once suggested
> that
>> the best scientific test would be to take a chimp and fling 'em into deep
>> water and record the results. Alas and thank goodness, most ethics
> prevent
>> this experiment.
>> --charles
>
> I don't think there's much doubt (I actually don't think there's any, but
> having seen over the years many people, some of whom still post here,
> having
> denied basic well-established facts, I have to leave room for someone
> doubting it) that chimps rarely swim, and quite likely many or most cannot
> swim. But the question is is this due to body fat, and your early
> experience, and my early experience, and the example of jockeys, and any
> instance when a chimp has been observed to swim (there's at least one --
> I've heard there are others, but I haven't got any reliable info on that)
> demonstrates that the lack of body fat isn't the reason that any given
> chimp
> doesn't swim. And of course if you want to do that scientific experiment
> on
> people, go right ahead, but have a good lawyer handy, because some of your
> subjects will drown, as it is a fact that many humans, relatively fatty
> though they may be, cannot swim. It isn't the fat that makes the
> differnece
> between an ability to swim and the lack of that ability.
> --
> JMoore
> __
> For a scientific critique of the aquatic ape theory, go to
> www.aquaticape.org
>
>

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