Re: Neanderthal noses as an 'aquatic' adapatation?

From: Algis Kuliukas (algis_at_RiverApes.com)
Date: 12/24/04 

Date: 23 Dec 2004 22:11:28 -0800

Rick Wagler wrote:
> "Algis Kuliukas" <algis@RiverApes.com> wrote in message
> news:1103856071.199241.64910@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> >> "Algis Kuliukas" <algis@RiverApes.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1103777377.989848.138430@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >> > You're also wrong to say Marc had no provocation.
> >>
> >> Of course, he's wrong, the fool. Well, the very first time when I
got
> > into
> >> SAP (IOW, before ever posting anything here!), 5 or more years
ago,
> > that
> >> very day, I saw my name mentioned by some dry aper who believed
that
> > the
> >> famous passage was wrong: "In a Neandertal swimming on his back,
the
> > large
> >> nose with distal nostrils and the protruding midface surrounded by
> > large air
> >> sinuses functioned as a snorkel." (from one of my Med.Hyp.papers,
can
> > be
> >> found in the files of http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT ). I
knew
> > this
> >> passage would elicit reactions, but since I like some
controversion &
> > try to
> >> write as concise as possible, I didn't change it. The dry apers
are
> >> incredibly stupid here: a child can see that if a neandertal with
a
> >> protruding nose (Zollikofer hadn't yet published on neandertal
noses
> > then)
> >> floated on his back, his nose worked as a snorkel. Only idiots (as
we
> > find
> >> many of them here) deny this. Whether or not neandertals really
did
> > this
> >> frequently, I don't know, but for some obscure reason (read: lack
of
> >> intelligence) dry apers think they have to laugh at it,
> >
> > They have to laugh at it, Marc, because the idea that a Neanderthal
> > might have ever swam is just not on their radar. The image of
> > neanderthals we've all been taught is ugly, ice-age cave men
wrapped in
> > animal skins stomping around the tundra looking for deer to hunt
and so
> > the very concept of swimming just does not compute. It's similar to
> > Homo erectus and the image of a savannah dweller. That image,
instilled
> > from an early age, cannot be contradicted by reason in minds that
are
> > too inflexible. It's as if they're saying to themselves 'but I know
> > neanderthals never swam, I've seen images of them.'
> >
> > And yet if anyone goes to the trouble to do this little experiment
one
> > can see that Marc's idea is not so stupid and, in fact, once again
is
> > probably right.
> >
> > Go to a part of a swimming pool that is too deep to touch the
bottom.
> > Take a really deep breath of air and tilt your head forwards and
just
> > hang there floating without moving. You'll find that the
orientation of
> > your floating body is such that your back is at the surface and
your
> > mouth and nose are submerged. Now, merely tilt your head backwards
> > slightly. You'll find that rather quickly you'll reach a point
where
> > your body will suddenly re-orientate itself in the water so that
your
> > mouth and nose become the parts of the body that are above the
water,
> > enabling you to breathe without any effort whatsoever, as well as
open
> > your eyes and look around.
> >
> > Now, if you are a person with an median amount of adipocity for a
> > western society, clearly if you exhaled quite deeply your breathing
> > holes would submerge again but the degree this happens it very much
> > dependant on how fat you are. With a bit of practice one can soon
> > perfect the technique of taking long, deep inhalations followed by
very
> > short, shallow exhalations to stay at the surface. It's definitely
a
> > very close thing between being able to breathe whilst floating with
no
> > effort at all and not being able to do so.
> >
> > I would suggest that any slight change in the orientation of the
skull
> > and increased adipocity would be more than enough to tilt the
balance
> > in favour of effortless breathing whilst floating. This is the sort
of
> > thing aquasceptics have often cited as an argument against the AAH.
> > (Hippos have breathing holes at the top of their heads, we don't -
> > there you go, proof it's crap!)
> >
> > I'm suggesting that comparing humans to neanderthals (and probably
H.
> > erectus too) we do see such differences. If neanderthals spent a
> > significant amount of time swimming then, considering the water
would
> > have been rather cold, it is quite logical that they'd have had far
> > greater adipocity than humans - obviously for improved
thermoregulation
> > as well as increased buoyancy. This, plus increased buoyancy that
> > results from colder water and the greater mass of the occipital
parts
> > of the neanderthal cranium would, in all likelihood allow a
neanderthal
> > to float and breath effortlessly without even having to consciously
> > tilt the head back. Increased nose size would only aid this effect.
> > Marc's use of the word 'snorkel' might have led to some
> > misunderstanding and ridicule but his basic point is clearly valid
if -
> > outrageous for some people here to even consider, we know -
> > neanderthals swam regularly.
> >
> > So once again a big objection to the AAH and one that has resulted
only
> > in pure sneering appears to have validity if you look at it more
> > closely.
> >
> >> although they're
> >> still unable, after so many years, to give 1 argument against the
> >> hypothesis. I can't describe their behaviour in other words than
> >> unscientific biasedness. The same with all my other hypotheses. I
> > don't care
> >> whether my hypotheses are wrong, but if somebody believes they're
> > wrong, he
> >> should at least be able to give some arguments...
> >
> > They (the aquasceptic majority on sap) don't want to give
arguments.
> > They just want us to accept that it's wrong because they think they
> > know best. All they have is the ex cathedra argument now. Jason
even
> > disputed that Langdon's refutation had won primacy against a
majority
> > of papers in the literature by clearly neutral authors. Get that!
The
> > one paper published in JHE that has attempted to refute the AAH and
> > *he's* questioning whether it has won primacy! If not Langdon, then
> > what? - Lowenstein and Zihlman is even worse and Roede et al was a
> > knife edge decision to reject the idea that there was actually an
> > aquatic ape but gave support to the idea that water acted as an
agency
> > of selection in our evolution. I can only conclude that coffee room
> > gossip must be Jason's preferred means of rejecting such
hypotheses.
> >
> > I think we can declare that this debate is really over, Marc. The
tide
> > has turned. When the best they can come up with is calls to
killfile
> > and calling names, I think it's pretty clear which side has won the
> > argument.
> >
> > Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year to you and your family,
Marc
> > (but not your dog!) :-D
> >
> > All the best
> >
> > Algis Kuliukas
> >
> So all the Neandertal cranial morphology is an adaptation
> to floating on one's back? Doing what? Keeping their mouths
> open hoping something flies in?
>
> Take him away , Marc, he's plucked, stuffed and ready for the oven
>
> Happy Mid-Winter Greetings to all
>
> Rick Wagler

Sneering ridicule is the only kind of response I expected but if (I
know this is difficult for you) assume that neanderthals swam sometimes
then it's entirely logical that they could have floated and breathed
without any effort at all. It's not even 'on one's back.' If you tilt
your head back after inhaling a lungful of air, it's your head which
emerges from the water more than your chest.

Algis Kuliukas

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Neanderthal noses as an aquatic adapatation?
    ... >> might have ever swam is just not on their radar. ... >> neanderthals never swam, ... >> Take a really deep breath of air and tilt your head forwards and just ... >> hang there floating without moving. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Neanderthal noses as an aquatic adapatation?
    ... > They have to laugh at it, Marc, because the idea that a Neanderthal ... > Take a really deep breath of air and tilt your head forwards and just ... > hang there floating without moving. ... > I'm suggesting that comparing humans to neanderthals (and probably H. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Neanderthal noses as an aquatic adapatation?
    ... protruding nose ... saying to themselves 'but I know neanderthals never swam, ... suddenly re-orientate itself in the water so that your mouth and nose become ... of effortless breathing whilst floating. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Neanderthal noses as an aquatic adapatation?
    ... >> protruding nose (Zollikofer hadn't yet published on neandertal noses ... > They have to laugh at it, Marc, because the idea that a Neanderthal ... > neanderthals never swam, ... > Take a really deep breath of air and tilt your head forwards and just ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: NASA: 2010 Meteorological Year Warmest Ever
    ... Actually the Neanderthals did not survive. ... They had ground, air, and water vehicles to ship things over vast distances ... They had airplanes shipping in fresh food from the Southern Hemisphere ... during the winter in the Northern Hemisphere and didn't need to worry about ...
    (sci.physics)