Re: OT: Malhi, Eshleman, haplogroup A, language, time, and direction.....

From: Lee Olsen (paleocity_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 03/26/05 

Date: 25 Mar 2005 20:39:22 -0800

G Horvat wrote:
> On 25 Mar 2005 12:28:47 -0800, "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >G Horvat wrote:
> [...]
> >> The best method, as I see it, is to look for
> >> correlations to extend the usefulness of the often limited data in
> >> each field i.e. Uto-Aztecan premolar goes with haplogroup B.
> >
> >OK....
> >1. Uto-Aztecan premolar goes with haplogroup B.
> >2. Uto-Aztecan-Numic-Northern Paiute.
> >3. Micro-blades go with haplogroup A.
>
> Could you explain why you would make this association (as I am
> unfamiliar with the distribution of microblades in both the New World
> and Old).

http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/ames3.htm
"Microblades have long been regarded as evidence for the presence of
Athabascan speakers, in western Canada and Alaska, for example.
Sometimes, a single artifact type is thought to indicate
socio-linguistic differences" (e.g. Holmer 1994).

A little background:
http://www.cr.nps.gov/aad/kennewick/ames6.htm
"Microblades
Microblades are small blades usually struck from a prepared core. At
the Ryegrass Coulee site (discussed below), complete blades are less
than 2 cm in length. These small blades were hafted into the ends
and/or sides of bone, antler and wooden handles and shafts to produce
an array of cutting and piercing tools. To the north, microblades are
present in interior British Columbia, and on the central and northern
Northwest Coast, and are, in fact, diagnostic of the Archaic period
(10,000 - 6500 BC) in that region. They are also found in Alaska as
well as Siberia (see papers in Carlson and Dalla Bona 1996). They have
great antiquity in Northeast Asia. The circum-North Pacific
distribution of microblades plays an important role in some scenarios
of the peopling of the New World (Dixon 1999, also see papers in West
1996). On the northern Northwest Coast, they are generally absent, with
some exceptions, after 4000 BC (Ames and Maschner 1999). Microblades
occur on the southern Northwest Coast between about 1500 BC and 600 BC.
The temporal distribution of microblades in interior British Columbia
is the subject of some ambiguity (Pokotylo and Mitchell 1998). They may
be present as early as 6500 BC and fall out of use after 2000 BC.
However, there is also some evidence for microblades there during the
last 2000 years (Pokotylo and Mitchell 1998).
Microblades and microblade cores14 are not found throughout the
Southern Plateau. They occur in sites along the Upper Columbia River
upstream from Vantage and in sites in Grand Coulee (Galm et al. 1981).
In the Chief Joseph Reservoir sites, they date between c. 5000 BC to
1000 BC (Campbell 1985). The largest assemblage of microblades on the
Southern Plateau was recovered at the Rye Grass Coulee site (Munsell
1968) where 235 microblades and seven complete and fragmentary cores
were recovered. The microblades were associated with a late
Vantage/Cascade phase (5700 - 4500 BC) assemblage that included Cascade
points, Mahkin Shouldered (Lohse 1985) and Cold Springs Side Notched
points, edge-ground cobbles and milling stones. The site produced three
radiocarbon dates, two on charcoal, one on shell. The earliest charcoal
dates are from a composite sample recovered immediately below what was
identified in the field as Mazama ash. The date (UW-114) is 6790 ± 340
(cal 2 sigma age span of 6400 - 4900 BC15), and given the sigma is
reasonable for an early date associated with Mazama ash. The shell date
(UW-113) is 6480±80. The second charcoal date is 3525±145 (UW-112)
(cal 2 sigma age span of 2300 - 1500 BC). This is taken by Munsell to
closely date the site's last occupation. While they are uncorrected,
these dates are generally contemporaneous with the dates on microblades
recovered farther upstream in the Chief Joseph Reservoir.
Microblades and microblade cores have also been recovered farther west
in two sites near Mt. St. Helens in the southern Washington Cascade
Mountains. Occupations at both sites are contemporaneous with Ryegrass
Coulee. Twelve cores and 43 blades were recovered at Layser Cave
(Daugherty et al. 1987a) and 19 cores and 23 flakes were recovered from
the Judd Peak Rockshelters (Daugherty et al. 1987b). The oldest date at
Layser Cave is 6650±120 b.p (WSU 3593) which calibrates to 5780 - 5360
BC. The lowest date at Judd Peak is 5970±100, (5250 - 4550 BC). The
Layser Cave represents perhaps 1000 or 2000 years of occupation. The
Judd Peak occupation spans the rest of the Holocene. Microblades are
present through its deposits.
Sanger (1968) suggests that the Plateau microblade tradition was
distinct from those on the coast or to the north, although it must, he
thought, ultimately derive from the north. Microblades have sometimes
been attributed to Athabascan speakers (their presence reflecting a
passive style of tool manufacture associated with Athabascans (see
discussion in Pokotylo and Mitchell 1998), and their temporal and
geographic distribution taken as a measure of the movement of that
language family. However, there is also an array of functional, formal
and technological issues that surround them (Campbell 1985 Hicks 1997,
papers cited in Pokotylo and Mitchell 1998, papers and bibliography in
Carlson and Dalla Bona 1994) - it is not altogether clear how and why
they were used, and under what circumstances."

Plus, let's not forget Malhi and Eshleman--in spite of some horrific
errors, I agree with their hap A and language results.
>
> >4. Two separate migrations of haplogroup A, one early, one late.
>
> Why two?

Because if microblades ceased at a specific time, and another A group
(post microblade) came down that is well-dated archaeologically, then
that makes two.

>Which one would you consider Panamanians & Costa Ricans, who
> also lack haplogroups C, D & X, to have been derived from?
>

I don't know. I haven't looked at some of these papers in 10 years. I'm
looking this stuff up as I go. Besides, didn't you say: "to extend the
usefulness of the often limited data in each field"? Maybe we need a
language expert or something?

What kind of mtDNA do the Apache have? Are there any old skeletons in
Panama that have been tested?

> >5. Salishan goes with haplogroup A.
>
> Why?

  A= B,
  B= C,
  then C= A OR Holmer (1994) is right in this case, complete with
collaborating evidence like shell trade, lithics, language, DNA etc.

>
> You've got the right idea but you're too brief.

Well, what else do _you_ have for the list?
>
> Gisele

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