Re: OT: Malhi, Eshleman, haplogroup A, language, time, and direction.....

From: G Horvat (g-horvat_at_shaw.ca)
Date: 03/27/05 

Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 05:21:36 GMT

On 26 Mar 2005 19:01:26 -0800, "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[...]
>> Below, I list the *basic* HVR I mutations of haplogroup A sequences
>> and their distribution (add 16,000 to each site number):
>>
>> 223T 290T 319A Asia
>> 223T 290T 319A 362C Asia/America
>> 223T 290T 319A 362C 111T America (throughout)
>> 223T 290T 319A 362C 111T 192T Nadenes, Aleut-Inuit, Chukchi, Koryak
>> 223T 290T 319A 362C 111T 265G Chukchi, American & Siberian Inuit (but
>> no Aleuts)

For comparison (basic HVR I mutations, again):
223T 290T 319A 362C 111T 187T Common Chibchan Paezan of Panama
223T 290T 319A 362C 111T 360T Common Chibchan Paezan of Panama
(reported by several molecular biologists)

[...]
>Do you agree with Schurr (your URL): "This is also true of the Navajo
>and Apache tribes of the American Southwest, who arose out of a southern
>expansion of Na-DenŽe groups some 500-1000 years ago (Budowle et al. 2002; Lorenz &
>Smith 1996; Malhi et al. 2001; Torroni et al. 1992, 1993a)."

Sorry, I meant to add more about the Apache and Navajo since you
asked. 100/125 Apache haplogroup A sequences had the 16192T mutation
and/or 16233G which was usually found in conjunction with it. The
same applied to 29/68 Navajo sequences.

Apache (Budowle's sample)
Haplogroup A - 125 (69%)(100 (56%) with 16192T and/or 16233G)
Haplogroup B - 35 (19%)
Haplogroup C - 16 ( 9%)
Haplogroup K - 1
Haplogroup T - 1
Haplogroup X - 1
haplogroup H - 1
Total - 180

Navajo (Budowle's sample)
haplogroup A - 68 (47%)(29 (20%) with 16192T and/or 16233G)
haplogroup B - 63 (43%)
haplogroup C - 11 ( 8%)
haplogroup D2 - 2 ( 1%)
haplogroup X - 1
haplogroup U2 - 1
Total 146

All the Aleut haplogroup A sequences except one had 16192T or a back
mutation at this site and at least one other mutation in common with
the sequences which had it. The same explanation applies to the
16233G of the Apache/Navajo. Some sequences had 16192T 16233G and
others just had 16233G. They would be considered to be related.

I agree that all the haplogroup A sequences which have 16192T are
closely related.

>Schurr (your URL): "It remains possible that haplogroups A-D were
>introduced into the Americas more than once in separate expansion
>events." See, I'm, not the only one suggesting such a thing. I thought
>of this from the lithic evidence and did not read Schurr until today.
>So now I have back-up from a biologist :-).

It does not look as if Schurr had access to or considered the most
recent information available i.e. Herrnstadt et al. (2002) and Bandelt
et al. (2003). If one considers the Chukchi & Siberian Eskimo
haplogroup A sequences as part of the Native American group, then the
complete sequence data obtained by Herrnstadt is inconsistent with
reintroduction of the haplogroup. If one doesn't, then it could be
theorized that virtually identical haplogroup A sequences (relative to
the Asian ones) were introduced twice.

>> >What kind of mtDNA do the Apache have? Are there any old skeletons
>in
>> >Panama that have been tested?
>>
>> Did I ever send you a doc that I prepared which was a listing of
>> haplogroup frequencies in New World populations (including ancient
>> samples) and the linguistic groups they belong to?
>
>That doesn't sound familiar, looks like I could use the data. There
>are a couple of microblade traditions east of the Mississippi, it might
>be interesting to compare DNA and languages on those, just for the fun
>of it.

I will send it.

>> >> >5. Salishan goes with haplogroup A.
>> >>
>> >> Why?
>> >
>> > A= B,
>> > B= C,
>> > then C= A OR Holmer (1994) is right in this case, complete with
>> >collaborating evidence like shell trade, lithics, language, DNA etc.
>>
>> I'm not following you.
>
>Virtually every microblade industry on the Plateau is associated with
>Salish or Athapaskan (some URLs say they are related languages)
>language groups.

How are they associated?

As was written in one of the articles, it appears that the Bella Coola
had contact with the Haida (re: 16355T).
 
>> >> You've got the right idea but you're too brief.
>> >
>> >Well, what else do _you_ have for the list?
>>
>> Seems to me I've been posting "lists" for years (and no one pays any
>> attention to them). Maybe tomorrow or the day after ...
>
>That wasn't what I meant. You listed: "Uto-Aztecan premolar goes with
>haplogroup B" (an association from another discipline besides DNA), do
>you have anything else like that? Multi-disciplinary studies is key,
>remember?

I'm just saying that I've posted information concerning correlations
so much in the past that I feel like a broken record. (How many times
have you read that the Chukchi & Siberian Eskimo crania measurements
were inbetween those of Amerinds and Siberian Mongoloids?) A logical
explanation for this observation is that both Asian populations have
Native American admixture (and there goes your evidence for a separate
Athabascan migration!).

Maybe Athabascans, a twig of the Native American mtDNA haplogroup A
branch, picked up microblade technology from Asians and that's why it
is very localized. What evidence do we have which suggests that there
was no contact across the Bering Strait? Molecular biologists have
usually just assumed that there was none.

Gisele

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT: Malhi, Eshleman, haplogroup A, language, time, and direction.....
    ... >and Apache tribes of the American Southwest, who arose out of a southern ... I meant to add more about the Apache and Navajo since you ... 100/125 Apache haplogroup A sequences had the 16192T mutation ... same applied to 29/68 Navajo sequences. ...
    (sci.archaeology)
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  • Re: Back-migrations to Asia (attention: Gisele)
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  • Re: Back-migrations to Asia (attention: Gisele)
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