Re: Sleeping on the ground
- From: "Jim McGinn" <jimmcginn@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: 15 Jul 2005 11:29:18 -0700
Paul Crowley wrote:
> "Jim McGinn" <jimmcginn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1121239778.515741.179010@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > Paul Crowley wrote:
> > > At some point in our evolution, our ancestors
> > > stopped sleeping in trees. This represented a
> > > major change in niche.
> >
> > Why do you assume this?
>
> I don't assume this. I stated the reasons for
> proposing it. To restate: Unlike their chimp-
> like ancestors, ground-sleeping hominids
> could live in places where there were no
> available (or suitable) 'sleeping-trees'.
> Numerous other factors (such as the ability
> to retain tools and weapons) allowed for the
> occupation of an entirely different niche.
Much of what you're stating here I agree with. I agree, for example,
with your larger premise that species tend to make relatively dramatic
shifts to a new niche (new lifestyle). And I agree that they started
to, more and more, sleep on the ground. In my scenario the shift to
sleeping on the ground is a result of a shift to a lifestyle that
involves larger groups, communities, and a more situated
territorialistic lifestyle (which is necessary to survive the effects
of the dry season, as I've explained). What's missing in your scenario
is any kind of overriding reason for the ground-sleeping, club-wielding
lifestyle that you profess.
For you it just happens. For me it happens as a result of change in
climate and resulting change in predatory factors.
>
> > > Sleeping on the ground brought in sets of new
> > > and entirely different problems. Firstly, the
> > > hominid territory had to be effectively free of
> > > nocturnal predators.
> >
> > Why do you, once again, assume this?
>
> I don't assume this. I stated the reasons for
> proposing it. Ground-sleeping hominids,
> especially young hominids, would not be
> able to resist nocturnal predators -- if any
> were in proximity of their sleeping site.
Large groups minimizes this problem.
<snip>
> > And, sure, this might have brought them to more often sleep
> > on the ground. But they still used trees to evade predators, nighttime
> > or daytime. Especially during the depths of the dry season.
>
> Ridiculous. When did you last sleep in a
> tree?
Relevance?
> When did you last hear of a human
> family -- with a baby and other small infants
> -- sleeping in a tree?
>
> Like standard PA (which you follow so
> much)
Surely you jest.
> you are reluctant to face up to the
> fact that there was a drastic change in
> niche,
I'm the one that told *you* about this.
> and that it could only have taken
> place when the move was made to the
> ground -- i.e. to sleep on it.
>
> > > Defecation (of faeces or urine) by an infant
> >
> > Useless speculation.
>
> You mean that it's something with
> which you don't (or can't) deal?
This is one of hundreds of factors that would have been novel to the
newly communal hominids.
> For you (as for standard PA) infants
> don't exist. The species consists
> only of adult males.
Jim
.
- References:
- Sleeping on the ground
- From: Paul Crowley
- Re: Sleeping on the ground
- From: Jim McGinn
- Re: Sleeping on the ground
- From: Paul Crowley
- Sleeping on the ground
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