Re: skinny runners - Jim's Crocodile Fable

richardparker01@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> Lee Olsen wrote:
> > richardparker01@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > Lee Olsen wrote:
> > > > > > I wonder if our man Dick has stumbled across JM yet.
> > > > > > Here, Dick, http://www.aquaticape.org/, have a go.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've already had a go.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Moore quotes from somewhere something about a crocodile that ate
> > > > > half-a-dozen people, fairly recently, on Siargao Island in the
> > > > > Philippines - which just happens to be the place where I live, half the
> > > > > year. It's total rubbish (and I have checked locally), but that 'fact'
> > > > > has not yet been retracted from his site, so far as I know - I haven't
> > > > > checked lately.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~mhardema/Html/Docs/p_att_seasia_aus.htm
> > > > "More recent however, nine people were killed on the small island
> > > > Siargao near Mindano on the Philippines, probably all by the same
> > > > crocodile (!)."
> > > > I agree that reports like this are hardly reliable, but what evidence
> > > > do you have that says the report is wrong? How far back did you check
> > > > and what sources?
> > >
> > > It's complete coincidence that Jim Moore quotes this crocodile fable
> > > (and gives no more than the specific name of a place)
> >
> >
> > I'm not saying that Moore's source is correct.
> >
> >
> > and the fact that
> > > I happen to live there - see www.coconutstudio.com if you don't believe
> > > me.
> >
> >
> > I believe you know where you live, and since you replied to my post, I
> > know you were not eaten by a crocodile last night :-).
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I would have thought there was no much better method of checking out an
> > > unattributed and undated report than asking around in the place where
> > > it was supposed to have happened.
> > >
> > > On a small island, like a small town, people tend to remember things
> > > for a long time - the mayor of my island town (Pop: 4000 - a major one
> > > on the island) can still remember the name of the Japanese officer
> > > billeted on his family - although he was only 4 at the time. Why should
> > > I disbelieve him when he tells me that stories about crocodiles eating
> > > people are rubbish?
> >
> > I have no reason not to believe your source and that he has no
> > knowledge of such an event. Are there any rivers or lakes on your
> > island that could support a crocodile the size of the one shown in the
> > first photo of the URL I gave?
> >
> > Where is this place from where you are at?
> > http://lakbaypilipinas.com/travel_surigao_city.html
> > Del Carmen - The Crocodile Sanctuary of the Philippines, this is the
> > home of the country's largest crocodiles, usually found in Del Carmen's
> > vast and well-preserved mangrove forest. Located in Del Carmen, Surigao
> > del Norte.
>
> Del Carmen (aka Numancia) is at the SW corner of Siargao island, about
> 20-30 km from where I live at the SE corner. You will see mentions of
> it in the Siargao Guide and Mangrove sections of the website


Thanks, I didn't realize it was that close to you.


> (www.coconutstudio.com). I also checked on the croc fable there - not
> for the petty reason of wanting to shoot down Jim's croc fable, but
> because I'm interested in crocodiles anyway.
>
> There are, or were, crocodiles there, certainly - I even mention Del
> Carmen's 'famous crocodile' in the website - this was a captive one,
> that recently died of neglect. I've even seen a wild crocodile myself,
> but in a different place - a picturesque lagoon where a popular visitor
> recreation is to swim into semi-submarine caves with just a handtorch -
> (I've done it myself, and still do) - but reports of a crocodile
> present have not reduced this activity in the least.
>
> And I expect you'll believe me if I say that I haven't been at all
> reticent about re-telling my own 'crocodile story' !
>
> But this is not about the existence of crocodiles, it's about their
> threat to humans.
>
> Del Carmen is sited just on the dry-landward side of a very large
> mangrove area, and was the first site settled by the Spanish on the
> island, some 300 years ago - would they have chosen that spot if there
> were monster man-eating crocodiles about?


So far, all the Holocene examples given recently on sap,ie, my URLs,
Awash (Algis), Lake Victoria (Leakey), and Del Carmen/Siargao (Richard)
have firearms involved.


>
> The same goes for sharks - I make an annual boat trip to Kaob, on the
> seaward side of that same mangrove area, to buy shark jaws (large ones
> - mako and tiger) that local fishermen catch regularly from very small
> boats - but again, no 'shark-eats-human' stories.
>
> My own town, General Luna, is the site of a well-known surfing spot -
> surfers come from all over the world (but especially Australia) and
> many float around in the open ocean for hours while waiting for good
> waves. At the end of the day, many of them repair to the town's couple
> of tiny cafes for a beer or more, and a recap of the day's surfing. I
> have never, ever heard of anyone even seeing a shark, let alone any
> hint of a shark attack.
>
> Jim makes much, on his website, of the awful dangers of sharks and
> crocodiles, preventing people from living by or spending much time in
> the sea - my first-hand personal experience is that the local people
> simply don't care too much, but if something did happen, they would
> treat it like a lightning strike - too bad, but don't hide in the
> house. Many of them go out diving at all hours of the day and night,
> alone, in small boats, to make their living.


"Del Carmen's 'famous crocodile' in the website - this was a captive
one,
that recently died of neglect." vs a human population today (correct me
if I'm wrong) of about 400,000 for the Siargao area. No wonder everyone
feels safe.


>
> Jim has used a sensational, but unattributed story to illustrate his
> case. It's wrong, he should withdraw it, and he needs an alternative
> unimpeachable source to back up what appears, at first sight, to be an
> authoritative put-down of a theory he doesn't like.


Yes, I agree with you, that particular example seems to be poorly
documented....


I also agree that world-wide, crocodile and shark attacks on humans are
rare on a percentage basis, is this because we have upset the balance
of nature with modern methods of extermination and human
overpopulation, or because crocs and sharks are not dangerous? If our
ancient adversaries are all nearly extinct or have been reduced in
physical size (as in the Awash by AK-47s), certainly attacks will be
rare or at the fable level as you put it.

What about during the Plio/Pleistocene when we made up only a small
percent of all predators and the large croc population was 400,000 for
a given area instead of the ratio being the other way around as it is
today? Now how safe would it be to stick your foot into the water
(especially if you have nothing more than a stick or rock for
protection instead of an AK-47)? The size of the croc or shark seems to
be one of the key ingredients, so if there are only a few large ones
left today, then sure, little threat. I doubt if this was the case
during the Plio/Pleistocene however.



>
> >
> > Maybe there simply was a mistake in geography?
>
> Whose - mine or Jim's?


The people that wrote the URL I gave and Jim's.
But right or wrong area, attacks do occur and just because large crocs
may be extinct on your island, doesn't mean a large croc is any less
dangerous elsewhere.
http://home.att.net/~crinaustin/Croc.htm



>
> regards
>
> Richard

.

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