Re: Savannah Runner Found Dead in Lake

Lee Olsen wrote:
> richardparker01@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > Lee Olsen wrote:
> > > richardparker01@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > deowll wrote:
> > > > > <richardparker01@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > > > news:1124105759.078720.119020@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > >Lee Olsen wrote, about Olorgesailie:
> > > > > >>So Isaac and Potts have proven the
> > > > > >> impossible, Homo was running around in the open at Olorgesailie.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pity that Lee chose Olorgesailie as the place where "Isaac and Potts
> > > > > > proved the impossible, Homo was running around in the open at
> > > > > > Olorgesailie". The level where the human mandible (and most of the
> > > > > > tools) were found is directly above a fossil lake bed.
> > > > >
> > > > > You mean it wasn't actually in a fossil lake bed? That would be what Lee
> > > > > said.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Since I last posted, I've read all of Rick Potts' field dispatches
> > > > on line at:
> > > >
> > > > 1999 Season
> > > > http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/aop/olorg1999/index.htm
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/8gpbm
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2004 Season
> > > > http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/aop/olorg2004/index.htm
> > > >
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/b93wr
> > > >
> > > > They're a bloody good read (if you're interested in that sort of
> > > > stuff).
> > > >
> > > > "28 Jun 04
> > > > The hominin, for example, was found on the boundary between Members 5
> > > > and 6, the same layer in which the stone tools were found near the Site
> > > > Museum. Also, as you can see in the photo, the hominin was found just
> > > > to one side of a large lava hump that led from the lowlands of the
> > > > basin up onto the highlands of Mt. Olorgesailie."
> > snipped
> > > Classic. A good reason not to believe quotes by secondary sources:
> > > "He or she died on a volcanic ridge, perhaps mauled by a lion or other
> > > carnivore, Potts said."
> > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5343787/
> >
> > I am quoting from Potts' own writings - you are quoting from a TV
> > hack's report.
>
>
> Quite frankly I thought the hack report, in spite of its shortcomings,
> was an improvement over "Could it be.....?" that you quoted from the
> diary.


It stands to reason that a trained hack could write better stuff that
the "Could it be..." phraseology that Rick Potts uses, having got much
better things to do than puff PR for his bosses, the Smithsonian - but
altogether, Potts seems to do a very good job with his diaries.
>
> You have already given me a lecture on archaeologists
> > facing newsmen:
> >
> > "Where it is really gets obvious is when some of these researchers get
> > a microphone shoved into their face for a TV interview. Many people
> > who write impeccable site reports simply fall apart under the pressure
> > of recognition and say the stupidest things
> > sometimes."
> >
> > Substitute 'impeccable' by 'uncriticisable' and you've got the very
> > nature of formal site reports.
>
>
> How would you know that? Did a tourist drop one off for you to read?

No, I once had to write one myself. My phrasing of "AMAZING DISCOVERY -
Early Celtic Macehead amongst 3rdC AD Roman Pots" - became "amongst
dateable 3rdC AD Roman pottery an anomalous Early-period Celtic
macehead was also found".


> I don't imagine Rick Potts would allow
> > someone else to 'run amok' with his site diaries and allow them to
> > publish in his name, or that the Smithsonian site would host a
> > student's essays.
>
>
> "Could it be that Locality B was wetter,.... perhaps a lake..Did these
> fossil animals come from the same layers."
>
> Perhaps???? ROTFL.

Well, laugh, and if you really want to, roll around on the floor, about
the writings of the archaeologist on the ground, but see:

Willaim Calvin on Lake Ologesailie:
"We&#8217;re on our way to visit Olorgesailie, which is right on the
edge of a basin that held a lake until it lost part of its rim to earth
settling. About a million years ago, it contained Lake Olorgesailie (a
quite large freshwater lake, over a hundred km2, now vanished), much
like the still-wet ones in the Rift Valley north of Nairobi that
we&#8217;ll visit starting tomorrow."
http://williamcalvin.com/BrainForAllSeasons/Olor.htm


Rick Potts:
"Since different species of diatoms live under different lake
conditions, he (Dr Bernie Owen) can identify the species in our samples
and then build a picture of how Lake Olorgesailie spread, contracted,
became deeper, shallower, more alkaline or fresher at various points in
time. It's been great talking with him, and with some more work, we'll
be able to tell a lot about the lake that attracted early humans to the
Olorgesailie region."
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/aop/olorg2004/dispatch/26jun04/26jun04.htm
http://tinyurl.com/c92jw


> > > Notice the difference between "to one side of" and "on"? Although below
> > > he says "along or near." Misquoted maybe?
> >
> > Rick Potts says, quite clearly: " the hominin was found just
> > to one side of a large lava hump that led from the lowlands of the
> > basin up onto the highlands of Mt. Olorgesailie"
>
> Yep, that's what the hack report said also (at least in one place).



> > Lee: "Ponds that once existed" but still no evidence that it was near
> > a lake says Isaac.

Again, Isaac was a very single-minded and almost charismatic
archaeologist. He was more interested in stone tools (demonstrating,
when he came into a lecture, just how to make one) than he was in all
the other minutiae of an archaeological site.


> >
> >
> > Glyn Isaac is (was?) a very good archaeologist indeed, but he was
> > writing about a site he dug 40 years ago - Potts was writing last year.
>
>
> "a site"? Which one are you talking about? Guess you missed this:
> "Member 1 is a series of separate sites that run along a paleosol
> outcrop, which appears to be exposed for something less than 3 km."
> Nothing you have quoted so far refutes Isaac.

I haven't given too much time to archaeology since my "AMAZING CELTIC
MACEHEAD" was put down so thoroughly, but I do know, Lee, that a Member
marks a stratum, not a series of sites.


> > > > Potts has a theory, published some time ago, that hominins
> > > > hunted/scavenged by lake and river sides, and then returned to the
> > > > highlands to sleep in safety and get more rocks, and thus 'lived'
> > > > there.
> >
> >
> > > Since the lions share of the rocks and tools are away from the lakes
> > > and rivers, this is by far the most parsimonious hypothesis yet.
> > > However, there is no hard evidence as to just where they slept, only
> > > where the *most of the activity* occurred.
> >
> > Most of what activity?
>
>
> "At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.

Just how far from the playa lakes - and did Hay actually write that
sentence?

> At Olorgesailie:
> "The study suggests hominid preferences for certain kinds of
> topographic settings as locals for camps, notably the sandy channels of
> ephemeral water courses." Isaac 1977.

So Isaac said they camped in stream beds, while Potts, 30 years later,
says they went back up to the highlands every day.

> Not to mention Potts' rock caching hypothesis, based on exactly the
> activity Hay and Isaac are referring to.
>
>
>
> Finding rocks? Absolutely. But is that *most of
> > the activity*, or are eating,
>
>
> Butchery sites, did you forget those also? They aren't talking about
> shucking clams here you know.

Butchery sites are much more macho than finding a bunch of empty clam
shells. However scarce they are, they fit preconceived ideas (and
attract more funding).
>
>
>
> sleeping, breeding, etc not counted as
> > *activity* ?
>
>
> That has already been pointed out, did you miss that also?
>
>
> >
> > "Since the lions share of the rocks and tools are away from the lakes
> > and rivers, this is by far the most parsimonious hypothesis yet."
> >
> > Not the most sensible comment to make. Why should lions have the best
> > share of the rocks and tools?
>
>
> Are you kidding? Didn't Potts suggest a lion got the hominid that he
> found? Lions teeth are found near the tools you know (at least
> elsewhere in the area), by the looks of the teeth marks on the skull,
> it looks like the lions won the day.

I asked how the lions got the best share of the rocks and tools, and I
certainly was kidding.

But I omitted to note that lions got him, not crocodiles.

> > > > He also thinks the hominin died on the volcanic ridge on the way home,
> > > > then rolled off it and got embedded in the pond/marsh environment (he
> > > > can't quite bring himself to say lake margin).
> > >
> > >
> > > Richard, try to see the bias in what you just said. I just cited Isaac
> > > who said:
> > > "On relatively well-drained flats where sediments were weathering and
> > > being redeposited. Adjacent to the rocky peninsula and at least 2 km
> > > from any stable body of water."
> > > What makes you think he should contradict Issac?
> >
> > Potts doesn't contradict Isaac, directly, but what he says about the
> > 'rocky peninsula' is this:
> >
> > "July 14, 1999
> > Previous researchers considered it an important landscape feature of
> > the basin, and thus to the early humans who inhabited the basin.
>
>
> Must have been an important landscape feature of the basin for Potts
> also if he surmised all this from the feature: " It was walking along
> or near the volcanic ridge leading up to the highlands (a safer
> nighttime place to be than by the water's edge in the lowland) and it
> didn't quite make it."


The 'Lava Peninsula' and Potts' volcanic ridge are quite separate.
>
>
> >
> > However, our research has shown that the majority of Lava Peninsula was
> > actually covered by sediments by the end of Member 1 times (~990,000
> > years ago) and therefore could not have been a factor after that. It is
> > only in recent times that it has been lifted by faults and uncovered by
> > erosion."
>
>
> And this somehow refutes:
> "At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.
> At Olorgesailie:
> "The study suggests hominid preferences for certain kinds of
> topographic settings as locals for camps, notably the sandy channels of
>
> ephemeral water courses." Isaac 1977.
> Not to mention Potts' rock caching hypothesis, based on exactly the
> activity Hay and Isaac (and others) are referring to.
> The location of the Lava Peninsula, or whether it was buried or not,
> has absolutely nothing to do with where the lake was through time or
> where the majority of the sites were located.
>
I do like to hear old records played again and again.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > > A more parsimonious explanation would be that he died where he was
> > > > found - in a lake margin.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your evidence that refutes Isaac is??????
> >
> > I don't think Isaac discovered any hominin bones. Potts did.
> >
> >
> > My "A more parsimonious explanation would be that he died where he was
> > found - in a lake margin." is only my comment on Potts' conclusion:
> >
> > "At least for Olorgesailie, I think we've found an explanation. On a
> > previous day, I mentioned that the hominin discovery site occurred
> > along the slope of a volcanic ridge that extended up towards Mount
> > Olorgesailie. The fact it was found at this location helps support what
> > I call the highland hypothesis - an idea we suggested in a paper
> > published in 1999. We developed this hypothesis as a result of many
> > years of finding animal fossils and stone tools, but not finding any
> > hominin fossils. About 10 years ago, we were drawing a map of the
> > diverse kinds of volcanic rock in the highlands. We found basically all
> > of the local types of rock from which the toolmakers made handaxes.
> >
> > >From this work, it dawned on me that the hominins had been really
> > active on Mt. Olorgesailie and the nearby volcanic ridges. Could it be
> > that this is where they primarily lived? And since their bones weren't
> > found on the lake margin or in stream channels with the fossil animals
> > and stone tools, could the hominins have been living and dying in the
> > highlands?"
> >
> >
> >
> > Well - possibly not - it could have been just where they trekked to
> > find useful rocks.
>
> At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.
> At Olorgesailie:
> "The study suggests hominid preferences for certain kinds of
> topographic settings as locals for camps, notably the sandy channels of
>
> ephemeral water courses." Isaac 1977.

Same old record, same old track

>
> You still are avoiding the issue, do you have evidence that this is
> wrong or don't you?
>
Yes, see:

Extracts from: Kathlyn M. Stewart - Early hominid utilisation of fish
resources 1994


"The seasonal availability, nutritional benefits and the demonstrated
long-term seasonal exploitation of certain freshwater fish in Late
Pleistocene sites suggests fish should be considered as a food source
for early hominids. This suggestion is strengthened by the association
of fish remains with many early hominid sites, which include Kanjera
(Plumnier, pers. comm.), Lokalalei (Kibunjia, pers. comm-), Senga (Hams
el al., 1987), nine sites at East Turkana (Harris, 1978) and 11 sites
at Olduvai Gorge (Leakey, 1971) "

[That's 23 sites showing fish remains associated with early hominds]

"The best-preserved and most abundant fish remains associated with
early hominid cultural and/or other faunal remains occur at Olduvai
Gorge, where over 4000 well-preserved fish elements were recovered from
11 Bed I and II sites (Figure 2). Approximately half of these were
identified from Bed I sites by Greenwood & Todd (1970), while the rest
were analysed by the author, primarily from Bed II sites, using
comparative collections at the National Museums of Kenya in Nairobi."

"The low diversity of fish taxa in the Beds I and II sites is unusual
compared with many modern East African lakes and rivers, and is in part
likely due to the chemistry suggested for paleo-lake Olduvai. Hay's
reconstruction of paleo-lake Olduvai as "saline, alkaline and rich in
dissolved sodium carbonate-bicarhonate" (1976:53) suggests that it
shared chemical features with similar present-day East African soda
lakes, which have high salinity and alkalinity values, and impoverished
aquatic faunas."

[I note that you didn't mention Hay's analysis of paleo-Lake Olduvai -
Have you actually read his paper or his book - I haven't - it's not one
that tourists habitually carry around ;-)

"The composition of the fish assemblages is therefore in part affected
by ecological factors, with proportions of taxa varying considerably
between sites. All lake margin sites located in middle and lower Bed I
contain both Clarias and cichlids, but are dominated by Clarias
remains. In upper Bed I and in lower and middle Bed II, all but one
(FCVV) lake margin sites show a reversal in taxa, containing over 80%
cichlids, with few Clarias."

[Note the phrase 'All lake margin sites' and please note that such
lakes fluctuate seasonally]

"A variety of data, including the presence of rootlet holes and reed
casts in Tuff IB has led to the interpretation that FLKNN was situated
in the lake margin zone ca. 1 km from the paleo-lake (Leakey, 1971).
The lake, having no outlet, had greatly fluctuating levels (Hay, 1976).
Level 3 is described as an occupation surface, with associated cultural
and faunal remains, and remains of Homo habiiis (Leakey, 1971). Level 2
contained only faunal remains with no associated cultural remains."

"Both Levels 2 and 3 contain extremely high densities of fish bones,
far greater than either fossil or modern naturally-deposited fish
remains at Lake Turkana, or modern bones in an enclosed small lake.
Over 85% of these individuals arc Clarias, the catfish, with the
remainder being cichlids"

"The presence in Level 3 of several turtle shells without associated
skeletal elements has been interpreted by Louis Leakey and others to
indicate hominid predation (Leakey, 1971). These turtles can be caught
when lake waters arc receding, before they aestivate, and their
presence can be seen as further support for a dry season occupation.
While the aquatic-based faunas at FLKNN were not necessarily
accumulated at the same time as the mammalian faunas, the coincident
occurrence of these large accurnulatiom of bones implies real
association."

"The site FLK-Zinj is very similar to FLKNN Level 3 both in
depositional context and in fish assemblage composition (Leakey, 1971).
"

"The MNK site was located in the flood zone area of paleo-lake Olduvai
(Hay, 1976)- The sediments where cultural and faunal remains were
recovered consist of a fine-grained reworked tuff. Hay (1976) has
interpreted the depositional environment as an intermittently flooded
lake zone. "

[MNK - located in the flood zone area of the paleo-lake]

"BK, in upper Bed II, was interpreted as a stream channel site which
was secondarily deposited, probably only a short distance from its
original location, according to Mary Leakey (Leakey, 1971). Paleo-lake
Olduvai at this time was reduced to small lakes and marsh, and BK was
formed in eastern fluvial-lacustrine sediments. The site consists of a
series of reworked tuffs, clays, silts and sand which have filled a
river channel (Leakey, 1971). Leakey has suggested that the associated
cultural and faunal remains, including the remains of at least 24
Pelorovis (long-horned buffalo) individuals, represent remains from a
camp site which had been secondarily deposited, but only over a short
distance. The fish remains were abundant and concentrated primarily in
a single lithological unit several metres thick throughout the
trenches."

[This is the only stream channel site amongst the group - Leakey
thought that it was secondarily deposited]

"The age/size profile of the Clarias individuals (at BK) is strongly
biased towards very large individuals, unlike at other sites including
FLKNN, suggesting this represents a spawning population which was
either stranded by receding stream waters, or preyed upon while
spawning, or both. Two elements have toothmarks, probably of a
carnivore, [a human one, maybe?] while two elements, a dermethmoid and
a frontal fragment, have possible cutmarks".

[Note that she's studying large fish bones recovered and stored in
museums - perhaps there was not so much attention given to microfaunal
parts when these sites were excavated]

Fish usually don't require stone-tool butchery (no tendons, no bone
marrow worth talking about, and the brains can be cracked open with any
convenient rock) so finding possible cutmarks on just two bones doesn't
necessarily suggest that the rarity of them cuts out any evidence of
fish-eating. Most fish can easily be filleted by hand.



Compare this evidence with the numbers of large game animals or
butchery sites at Olduvai.


> >
> >
> > "The idea of sleeping on the higher ground rather than next to water
> > seemed an attractive idea. Lakes, ponds, and stream channels in the
> > African bush are good natural sources of water and plant food during
> > the day. But at night they turn into really great places if you want to
> > be hunted down as prey! The water margins attract the big and small
> > predators that like to hunt in the dark of night. Even today at
> > Olorgesailie, we often go to sleep hearing hyenas, jackals, and
> > sometimes lions growling and whooping off in the distance during their
> > nighttime prowls."
>
>
> So that makes the third professional, Binford, Leakey, and now Potts
> who says lakeside or water sources are a bad place to set up camp. Now
why do I believe them?


Because you prefer to believe the reports of 3 Western archaeologists
(who have an interest in saying what dangerous places they dig in) than
tap the experiences of the millions of people who now live by lakeside
or water sources.

> >
> > "Anyway, early humans could get food in the lowlands - that's where
> > they left the chipped stone tools and other evidence of their
> > activities. And, unlike earlier hominins, they could have avoided the
> > favored hunting areas of other predators if they got to higher ground
> > at night."
>
>
> Correct, lowlands, high plateaus at Koobi fora, but no pattern of
> preference lakeside. But there is a preference for dry stream channels
> away from the playa lakes, just as Isaac pointed out.

Did Isaac ever use the term 'playa lakes' ?

> > Or any other safe haven.
>
>
> Yes, or any other safe haven well away from water sources.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Another more parsimonious theory would be that these hominins (a
> > > > million years later than Olduvai etc) were spending their active,
> > > > waking, living hours by the lakeside catching catfish, frogs, etc (not
> > > > periwinkles, Lee, but perhaps freshwater Natica spp - very common in
> > > > African lakes, and freshwater clams, that are somewhat larger), and
> > > > very, very occasionally butchering scavenged or hunted large animal
> > > > corpses.
> > >
> > > Plausible does not prove cause. Plausible does not cancel 100% of the
> > > On-the-ground-evidence.
> >
> >
> >
> > On-the-ground evidence - according to Potts - includes catfish bones
> > found in the same sediment as the hominin skull-cap.
>
>
> So far as I know, no one here or anywhere else has disputed the fact
> that small-shallow ponds and small-shallow water ways were not utilized
> by early Homo. At issue is whether they were utilizing large enough
> bodies of water consistently that would require or force them into
> swimming and diving to obtain food, and thus turning themselves into
> AAHers. The answer is a resounding no.
>
>
> > >We know that items as small as bird droppings,
> > > tiny roots, freshwater clams, and seeds are preserved at these sites.
> > > Name one site were there is any demonstrated association between the
> > > items you mentioned and Homo.
> >
> > Olduvai catfish - see Kathlyn Stewart - with cutmarks on at least two
> > large pieces - but that was a million years before Olorgesailie.
>
>
> Is that a joke? Two? Three percent cut marks on all catfish bones at
> three different major sites and I will rethink my position. That is
> called science.
>
> Are you sure you are not exaggerating on the date? Didn't you just
> quote Potts at "(~990,000
> years ago)"? Olduvai only goes back c two million, that means the
> cut-marked catfish were at bedrock.
Would you mind citing exactly what
> the date these catfish bones were estimated to be?

No you can work that out for yourself from Kathlyn Stewarts examples as
given above.

And I didn't claim Potts' dates at "(~990,000 years ago)" - Potts did
- I think it's ridiculous to claim such close and certain dates at that
distance in time, and even more so at Olduvai, about twice as old.


>
> I'm sorry, but tests have already demonstrated that cut marks can show
> up on bones that were known not to have any human intervention
> involved. I doubt if cut marks on two bones are going to overturn all
> the cut-marked-bone evidence found throughout Africa on bovids etc.

Well, if "tests have already demonstrated that cut marks can show up
on bones that were known not to have any human intervention involved"
then what happens to all the evidence that is said to show human
intervention was involved ?

> >
> > More modern analogies are Hadza (Blurton Jones) who 'bash catfish (in a
> > temporary lake) with their bows' and the annual fish-fest on the Sokoto
> > river in Nigeria, where hundreds of men, women and children still
> > gather to bash catfish with sticks and clubs, then eat them either raw
> > or grilled over small fires. I've seen that myself, but, sorry, I don't
> > have peer-reviewed publications to prove it.
>
> Nope, I believe you, no citation necessary. In fact I was hoping I was
> going to get a chance to throw in
> http://www.okienoodling.com/film/
>
> I wonder how many crocs they caught in the tournament? I could be
> wrong, but it seems like one guy grabbed a snapping turtle.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > - Sleeping somewhere safer than an open lake shore - perhaps in reed
> > > > beds, rocky outcrop caves, trees? but not necessarily in the highlands
> > >
> > >
> > > Why don't the local natives sleep in these areas if they are so safe?
> >
> >
> > The local natives have houses.
>
> So that means Potts' hominid was living in a house, since that makes it
> safe to live lakeside.
>
>
> >
> > > Why do they build stake fences out into the lake just to get water?
> >
> > What lake ? I think you said earlier that very arid Olorgesailie
> > nowadays is about the same as it was a million years ago.
>
> This was in reference to a post a while back, you must have missed it.
> I wasn't talking about Olorgesailie. Come to think about it, I wonder
> where the animals get water today at Olorgesailie? I know cheetahs are
> still there, one tangled with Leakey's dog.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > > - And going up to the highlands with his wife once a month, where he
> > > > loaded the baby sling he'd probably invented a million years earlier,
> > > > with new rocks, and getting her to carry the lot back down again.
> > > > (That's not parsimonious, I know, but perhaps a bit more so than
> > > > inventing a prehistoric lake-to-mountain commuter).
> > >
> > > Inventing? Do you think obsidian was brought in from 45 km away by
> > > hyaenas?
> >
> > Please read what I wrote again - "That's not parsimonious, I know, but
> > perhaps a bit more so than inventing a prehistoric lake-to-mountain
> > commuter"
> >
> > - a commuter travels back & forth every day (as Potts has proposed)
> > but, very obviously, if the rocks you need to make your tools are
> > somewhere else, then you have to go and get them. There is no reason at
> > all why going and looking for rocks should be translated into daily
> > commuting.
>
>
> But this wasn't invented, this is demonstrated fact. This is the
> on-the-ground pattern, not only at Olorgesailie, but at Koobi Fora,
> Baringo, Awash etc.
> "At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.
> At Olorgesailie:
> "The study suggests hominid preferences for certain kinds of
> topographic settings as locals for camps, notably the sandy channels of
>
> ephemeral water courses." Isaac 1977.

Same old record. Same old track.
>
>
>
> >
> > Unless you just like the idea, proposed it a few years ago, and feel
> > some loyalty to it.
>
> Well, I think he is on the right track, I just don't aggree with all
> his details, especially after the "Could it be..."? And
>
> "perhaps" does not refute Isaac and Hay. "Try to fathom this, Member 1
> are not the only sites at Olorgesailie, nor are they the only sites in
> Africa."

Of course Member 1 are not the only sites at Olorgesailie - consider
the following:

"Try to fathom this, Member 1 are not the only sites at Olorgesailie,
nor are they the only sites in Africa."

- and perhaps imagine if that was said to you. How you might feel about
that pronouncement, and its smug tone of natural superiority?


>
> >
> >
> > > Do you understand anything at all about archaeology? If they were
> > > living anywhere near the lakes, that is where the majority of the rock
> > > and tools would be, not miles from it.
> >
> > "near the lakes" is precisely where the majority of the tools are -
> > "not miles from it".
>
> So now Hay and Isaac, Leakey etc. are lying again? On the basis of:
> "Could it be that Locality B was wetter,.... perhaps a lake..Did
> these fossil animals come from the same layers." ??????

Have you read Potts' dispatches yet? Perhaps you could find the answer
to your question.

Or perhaps you could come up with exact quotes where, Hay, Isaac,
Leakey etc said that tools were found 'miles from lakes' ? Sure, their
rock materials are but that must be pretty obvious to anyone.

Or not, if mountain streams are continually bringing down cobbles from
those mountains.
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Hominid thinking to himself: "well foo, I just dropped my handaxe into
> > > the lake fishing for catfish. Nothing to do now but run back 4 km to
> > > the ammo dump at the main site, in the sweltering heat, and get another
> > > one."
> >
> > No - that's a quite daft suggestion. You might remember Potts' theory
> > at one time of 'rock & tool caches'. With another 10 years experience
> > on site, he seems to have dropped that idea. Now he seems to prefer the
> > idea that hominins went 'Home to the Highlands' every night to their
> > 'wee wifey and bairns', to pick up another lot of rocks.
> >
> > (On a completely different tack, do you think early hominins, facing
> > yet another trek down the mountainside to the swamps, woke up thinking
> > 'Just Another Monday' ?)
>
>
> But this wasn't invented, this is demonstrated fact. This is the
> on-the-ground pattern, not only at Olorgesailie, but at Koobi Fora,
> Baringo, Awash etc.
> "At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.
> At Olorgesailie:
> "The study suggests hominid preferences for certain kinds of
> topographic settings as locals for camps, notably the sandy channels of
>
> ephemeral water courses." Isaac 1977.

Same old record - same old track
>
> You haven't demonstrated one iota of evidence to refute this, so you
> will just have to keep looking at it.
>
>
> >
> >
> > > Imagination is not evidence. You are now basically calling Potts,
> > > Isaac, and Hays liars. Do you think they falsified data? What is your
> > > data (other than your imagination run amuck) that is evidence of this?
> >
> > I don't think you'll find that I have called anyone liars - that's no
> > way to conduct a dialogue.
> >
> > And I don't think that you'll find I've used rhetorical questions,
> > seasoned with stuff like "(other than your imagination run amuck)" as
> > last-ditch ammunition to face a challenge I can't answer reasonably.
>
> No, you just skip over a vast body of literature in favor of: "Could
> it be that Locality B was wetter,.... perhaps a lake..Did these fossil
> animals come from the same layers." and call that evidence of lakeside
> living.
>
> Then get this straight, "perhaps" does not locate either where the
> majority of the tools are found or the distance to the lake and no one
> is arguing that a catfish can't be found in a mudhole.
>
> And one more thing, Potts doesn't have a clue how far that skull was
> dragged by the predator, or even if the last one to have it was the
> one that killed it before it was dropped at that location.
>
> Patterns of *one* are a base for future finds, yes, but they prove
> nothing.

Absolutely

> > > No matter how much hard evidence is presented, you will always reply
> > > with another non-supported scenario. Potts' elephant was found in a
> > > swamp with tools carried in from the highlands.
> >
"Patterns of *one* are a base for future finds, yes, but they prove
nothing."

> > Nothing at all wrong with that. If you have to catch, or cut up, an
> > elephant in a swamp, then you just have to go and find the tools to do
> > it with wherever they are. I can't see how this relates to: " No matter
> > how much hard evidence is presented, you will always reply with another
> > non-supported scenario."
>
> Because the elephant sites, the hippo sites, the glenda sites, and all
> the other small channel sites all over Africa are part of an overall
> pattern, one Homo find at Olorgesailie or two catfish bones are a
> pattern of nothing. Science is about repetition and data, lots of it.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > > Catfish spears didn't
> > > show up in the record for another million years. Show me something
> > > besides imagination and I will rethink my position.
> >
> > Catfish showed up in the record a million years (Kathlyn Stewart)
> > before the Olorgesailie hominids,
>
>
> No one is claiming that hominids never when near a lake. I can tell you
> that cut marks have also been found on turtle shells. This does not set
> a precedence for lakeside living. Exceptions do not trump the rule.
> This: "Could it be that Locality B was wetter,.... perhaps a lake..Did
> these fossil animals come from the same layers." Does not trump this:
> "At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.
> At Olorgesailie:
> "The study suggests hominid preferences for certain kinds of
> topographic settings as locals for camps, notably the sandy channels of
>
> ephemeral water courses." Isaac 1977.
>
Same old record - same old track

> but no spears - you don't need spears
> > for catfish - ask anyone who lives near a slow river or a lake in the
> > SE states of the USA
>
> I know, I love it---how many crocs did they get?
> http://www.okienoodling.com/film/
>
>
>
> - and see above how modern Africans deal with
> > them.
>
> And how does modern African's treatment of catfish determine where the
> lake was a million years ago at Olorgesailie and where the majority of
> the sites are found.

What an interesting question - I think this demonstrates the logical
deduction method that you obviously always use, but in a curious way -
I could never have connected modern African catfishing with the
position of a lake a million years ago.

>
>
>
> >
> > Rethink your position.
>
>
> On the bases of what? Two alleged cut marks on a catfish bone and
> "Could it be that Locality B was wetter,.... perhaps a lake..Did these
> fossil animals come from the same layers." And I threw in the turtle
> cut-marks for free and you still can't show a preponderance of evidence
> to support your case.


I can't believe anyone would think early Homo
> would go Okie Noodling in a lake full of crocodiles.

No, I can understand your personal point of view, but
- Have you ever, ever seen a lakeful of crocodiles?
- Have you ever, ever been Okie Noodling ?

regards

Richard

.

Relevant Pages

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