Re: Homo & molluscs

You keep missing the point:
- AAT (shoreline adaptations sometime after the H/P split) is based on
comparative data, eg, it's ridiculous to believe that olfactory reduction is
for running over some plain, same for tens of other human features (AFAIK
the *only* human feature that is often seen in cursorial mammals is long
legs, but this is also often seen in wading birds).
- So far, you completely fail to explain how archeol.data falsify this. What
I see is a fast dispersal of Homo to Java & Algeria. Give 1 reason why not
along the coasts.
Sorry, Lee, no time for empty "discussions".
_______

"Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1125285360.011026.45020@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1124997524.511685.102370@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >> R Zhu et al 2004 "New evidence on the earliest human presence at high
> northern latitudes in northeast Asia" Nature 431: 559-562
>
> > Marc, you are simply to kind,
>
> I know. :-)
>
> > thank you for calling my attention to the Nature article, I had
forgotten
> all about it. I will be adding that article to my growing list of
> savanna-adapted hominid evidence (what a keeper!). Notice this quote in
the
> article above: "The lowest layer, about 1.66 Myr, provides the oldest
record
> of stone-tool processing of animal tissues in east Asia." Your post did
not
> mention any processing evidence of leaves, aquatic plants, nor is there
any
> in the body of the paper. But what the original article does mention, that
> your abstract does not, are the type of fauna found with the tools. Want
to
> guess which fauna?:-) You got it, hyenas, rhinoceros, ostrich, etc., all
> the same animals one typically finds out on the hot, sweaty, sun-baked
> savannas in Africa.
>
> So? Any reason why you think these animals could not have lived next to

Next to??? Define next; how long is a string? None of those animals
live next to a lakeshore and marsh environment.




> "The sediments, numerous molluscan shells (Gyraulus chihliensis and
> Planorbis youngi), and leaves and fruits of aquatic plants (for example
> Trapa sp.) in MJG-III indicate a low-energy lakeshore or marsh environment
> rich in organic materials."?

And what is your point? Not all places that have potable water for
animals and Homo do not always have the molluscan/plants you mentioned,
what did they do then, starve?



>
> > "Shallow water" the Nature report says. Yes, modern Hadza set up their
> hunting blinds near shallow water, but NEVER where they live. Their base
> camps are found 1-2 km away (O'Connell et all. 2002:850).
>
> Fine. And? Your point?


Hazda don't live near water for a very good reason, it's dangerous, and
they do not want to scare away any game that would possibly make a
meal. Time getting water is kept to a minimum.




We all know how modern Hadza live,


Yes, they live well away from any water source because they know that
near a water source is the worst possible place to live.



but we're talking
> here about our ancestors 1, 2, 3... Ma. Anything in the Hazda's lifestyle
> that contradicts our scenario?


Anything in the Hazda's lifestyle that contradicts the savanna
scenario? [a little negative argument for you also]



>
> > "At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.
>
> OK: that's where the stones are, no? So? Your point?


Away from the lakes is the point. No diving required.


>
> > "The earliest Eurasians preferentially occupied grasslands and open
scrub-
> and wood-lands, as in East Africa. Homo ergaster/erectus in East Africa
> after 1.7 Ma is associated with hot and dry conditions, and open
grasslands;
> its post-cranial anatomy, with its long limbs was geared to long-distance
> walking across open ground, and to heat dispersal through upright
posture."
> Dennell 2003
>
> Yes, we know many PAs used to associate


With all due respect Marc, you are not a PA; you are not qualified to
speak for "many" PAs. Many??? This is another wooden-man argument. Many
Mds in the Netherlands believe in little green men from outer space.
Prove me wrong, since you like the negative argument approach so well.




He with such environments (Wheeler's
> ridiculous midday foraging ideas),


Lip-service-flame job, not worth a reply.



but most PAs know better now
> http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm .


Exactly who are you putting words into the mouths of now? Did the
people who think that mountain beavers are semi-aquatic determine this
revelation?



>
> > This paper once again demonstrates the overwhelming trend for
savanna-bone
> processing by hominids, and once again zero evidence for marsh-plant
> exploitation. I need to coin a new term here, hmm,
> 'littoral-big-game-hunting'? No matter where you go, the evidence for
> savanna-bone processing always precedes shell/aquatic plant processing
> evidence, be it swamps or sea-side.
>
> Please, don't confuse the facts with your prejudices: the paper shows
early
> Homo in China next to hyena, rhino, ostrich, shellfish, aquatic plants.


Mosquitoes live there also, do you think Homo was eating the
mosquitoes?



The
> paper also give good reasons to believe these early Homo used stones to
> butcher animal tissues.


Yes, that is the factual savanna evidence.



Ever thought why our nearest relatives chimps (who
> hunt a lot), even savanna chimps, don't do this? Ever crossed your mind
that
> our ancestors might have acquired these skills at the seashores?


Don't confuse your prejudices with the facts. This is about Homo, you
do remember saying that? Want me to look it up? Adding more scenarios
and dreaming about what chimps were doing 2 Mya is nothing more than a
smoke screen to cover the fact that Homo was a savanna adapted
creature, no imagination required.




>
> IOW, you fail to give 1 argument against AAT:


IOW, you fail to give 1 argument against the savanna scenario



that our anestors were
> littoral once,


No, there is zero evidence that Homo was ever littoral.


because this explains our nakedness,

Like you speak for all biologists. See Langdon for better scenario.




SC fat,


No, you need to read Landon's new book, he gives a much better scenario
for this.



olfactory
> reduction,


Explained nicely by the small-hunting hypothesis.



masticatory reduction,


This reduction is still going on today. It is not a function of a
littoral lifestyle today, so there is no reason to believe it ever was.



large brain,


An impedance to diving.





tool use


Too bad it has been conclusively proven that some of those tools are a
function of butchering savanna animals and none have ever been proven
to be a function of shell or Trapa processing, and if you say you don't
need tools to process shells/Trapa, then you contradict your own
argument about aquatics governing tool development. You are letting
your prejudices get in the way of the hard facts etc etc.



etc.etc; many times
> better than savanna-running ideas.


IYO, not Leakey's, not Langdon's, nor Boaz.



> _________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "The timing of early human dispersal to Asia is a central issue in the
> study
> > of human evolution. Excavations in predominantly lacustrine sediments at
> > Majuangou, Nihewan basin, north China, uncovered four layers of
> indisputable
> > hominin stone tools. Here we report magnetostratigraphic results that
> > constrain the age of the four artefact layers to an interval of nearly
> > 340,000 yr between the Olduvai subchron and the Cobb Mountain event. The
> > lowest layer, about 1.66 Myr, provides the oldest record of stone-tool
> > processing of animal tissues in east Asia. The highest layer, at about
> 1.32
> > Myr, correlates with the stone tool layer at Xiaochangliang, previously
> > considered the oldest archaeological site in this region. The findings
at
> > Majuangou indicate that the oldest known human presence in northeast
Asia
> at
> > 40° N is only slightly younger than that in western Asia. This result
> > implies that a long yet rapid migration from Africa, possibly initiated
> > during a phase of warm climate, enabled early human populations to
inhabit
> > northern latitudes of east Asia over a prolonged period."
> >
> > This quote appears within the text: "The sediments, numerous molluscan
> > shells (Gyraulus chihliensis and Planorbis youngi), and leaves and
fruits
> of
> > aquatic plants (for example Trapa sp.) in MJG-III indicate a low-energy
> > lakeshore or marsh environment rich in organic materials."
> >
> > (thanks, Stephen)
> >
> > Trapa: shallow water, edible seeds.
> >
> > --Marc



.

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