Re: Homo & molluscs


"Jim McGinn" <jimmcginn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1125731530.718164.185070@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Marc Verhaegen wrote:

> So? Any reason why you think these animals could not have lived next to
> "The sediments, numerous molluscan shells (Gyraulus chihliensis and
> Planorbis youngi), and leaves and fruits of aquatic plants (for example
> Trapa sp.) in MJG-III indicate a low-energy lakeshore or marsh environment
> rich in organic materials."?

No reason at all Marc. Any reason that these highly
mobile creatures might have lived at considerable
distance from, "The sediments, numerous molluscan
shells (Gyraulus chihliensis and Planorbis youngi),
and leaves and fruits of aquatic plants."?
Any reason at all?

> > "Shallow water" the Nature report says. Yes, modern
> > Hadza set up their hunting blinds near shallow water,
> > but NEVER where they live. Their base camps are
> > found 1-2 km away (O'Connell et all. 2002:850).
>
> Fine. And? Your point? We all know how modern Hadza live, but we're
> talking
> here about our ancestors 1, 2, 3... Ma. Anything in the Hazda's lifestyle
> that contradicts our scenario?

Uh, Yes, as Lee stated above, modern Hadza set up
their hunting blinds near shallow water, but NEVER
where they live. Their base camps are found 1-2 km
away (O'Connell et all. 2002:850).

And, as if that's not damning enough:

"At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along
the former stream channels away from the playa
lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.

> OK: that's where the stones are, no? So? Your point?

The point is that there's nothing remotely aquatic
about any of this.

> > "The earliest Eurasians preferentially occupied grasslands and open
> > scrub-
> and wood-lands, as in East Africa. Homo ergaster/erectus in East Africa
> after 1.7 Ma is associated with hot and dry conditions, and open
> grasslands;

You sure about this, Lee. Hot and dry conditions? No trees? 1.7 mya?
You sure that they were not extrapolating based more on the present
day climate ratehr than the climate that actually existed 1.7 mya?
Don't allow Marc's idiocy to serve as an excuse for Savanna idiocy.

*The only known popluation that old in Eurasia is from Georga and the site
is on a hill.Oddly enough it contains naturally rounded rocks brought in
from elsewhere that don't show evidence of having been used to work stone
tools. Ammo I guess.

> its post-cranial anatomy, with its long limbs was geared to long-distance
> walking across open ground, and to heat dispersal through upright
> posture."
> Dennell 2003

Long distance walking nonsense.

*It is one of the few things we are really good at and the evidence in the
view of the biomechanics people is that they were better at it than we are.

>
> Yes, we know many PAs used to associate He with such environments
> (Wheeler's
> ridiculous midday foraging ideas), but most PAs know better now
> http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm .
>
> > This paper once again demonstrates the overwhelming trend for
> > savanna-bone
> processing by hominids, and once again zero evidence for marsh-plant
> exploitation. I need to coin a new term here, hmm,
> 'littoral-big-game-hunting'? No matter where you go, the evidence for
> savanna-bone processing always precedes shell/aquatic plant processing
> evidence, be it swamps or sea-side.
>
> Please, don't confuse the facts with your prejudices: the paper shows
> early
> Homo in China next to hyena, rhino, ostrich, shellfish, aquatic plants.
> The
> paper also give good reasons to believe these early Homo used stones to
> butcher animal tissues. Ever thought why our nearest relatives chimps (who
> hunt a lot),

Chimps hunt occasionally. And very poorly.

even savanna chimps, don't do this? Ever crossed your mind that
> our ancestors might have acquired these skills at the seashores?

Ever cross your mind that they aquired these skills in places other
than seashore?

*Especially hunting monkeys in trees.

>
> IOW, you fail to give 1 argument against AAT: that our anestors were
> littoral once, because this explains our nakedness, SC fat, olfactory
> reduction, masticatory reduction, large brain, tool use etc.etc; many
> times
> better than savanna-running ideas.

You provided no argument agains the supposition that they were never
littoral.

*Way to much cargo on one pack animal.

Many features have other explanitions.

The baby fat and diving reflex goes a long way to helping babies live
through natural disasters.

Even chimps show huge loss of olifactory ability.

What nakedness has to do with living in water unless you are huge isn't
clear.

Tool use isn't clearly connected to water living.

Jaw muscle reduction seems to go back to Apith times.

Hot climate and Savannah/desert people seem to have the least body hair.

After Flores I'm not sure why humans need a brain as large as we have. We
seem to be hauling a lot more neural tissue than we need for the level of
cognitive ability we have. In males it has been suggested that it was to
allow us to shake of minor brain damage.


> _________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "The timing of early human dispersal to Asia is a central issue in the
> study
> > of human evolution. Excavations in predominantly lacustrine sediments at
> > Majuangou, Nihewan basin, north China, uncovered four layers of
> indisputable
> > hominin stone tools. Here we report magnetostratigraphic results that
> > constrain the age of the four artefact layers to an interval of nearly
> > 340,000 yr between the Olduvai subchron and the Cobb Mountain event. The
> > lowest layer, about 1.66 Myr, provides the oldest record of stone-tool
> > processing of animal tissues in east Asia. The highest layer, at about
> 1.32
> > Myr, correlates with the stone tool layer at Xiaochangliang, previously
> > considered the oldest archaeological site in this region. The findings
> > at
> > Majuangou indicate that the oldest known human presence in northeast
> > Asia
> at
> > 40° N is only slightly younger than that in western Asia. This result
> > implies that a long yet rapid migration from Africa, possibly initiated
> > during a phase of warm climate, enabled early human populations to
> > inhabit
> > northern latitudes of east Asia over a prolonged period."
> >
> > This quote appears within the text: "The sediments, numerous molluscan
> > shells (Gyraulus chihliensis and Planorbis youngi), and leaves and
> > fruits
> of
> > aquatic plants (for example Trapa sp.) in MJG-III indicate a low-energy
> > lakeshore or marsh environment rich in organic materials."
> >
> > (thanks, Stephen)
> >
> > Trapa: shallow water, edible seeds.
> >
> > --Marc


.

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