Re: A critique of the BBC aquatic ape programme and the transcript.


"Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1126187933.266270.191370@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1126125691.917416.158110@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> > "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:1126025948.306695.235720@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> > > "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > news:1125899848.035654.30450@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > > Marc thought Dennell's was a learned paper also (it was), and he
cited
> > it
> > > many times claiming it was some big coup for his argument. Turned out
> > after
> > > a closer look the truth was just the opposite of his claims.
> > >
> > > No, no: although Dennell like many PAs is biased by his savanna
belief,
> > it's
> > > striking how many times he mentions water-related habitats. Robin
> Dennell
> > > 2003 "Dispersal & colonisation, long & short chronologies: how
> continuous
> > is
> > > the Early Pleistocene record for hominids outside East Africa?" JHE
> > > 45:421-440,
> >
> >
> > Marc now back-pedals away from "always by lakes and seas" to "water
> > related."
> > Having trouble remembering just what you said or did you just
> > deliberately misquote Dennell?
> >
> > Misquote?? see:
> >
> >
> > eg, "... Although well-adapted to grasslands, it appears to have
> > > preferred mosaic environments that also contained permanent water &
some
> > > wood- or scrubland, & as grasslands. .. Ain Hanech 36°N .. in a
> > > flood-plain; grassland is indicated by remains of Equus & gazelle,
open
> > > water by Hippopotamus.
>
> See-----
> Message-ID: 42cec844$0$6536$ba620e4c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Marc said in this and numerous other posts: "1.8-Ma Homo remains come
> from Algeria, Iran, Kenya, Georgia, Java... always
> near lakes or seas (R.Dennell 2003 JHE 45:421)."
>
> This was wrong, and as soon as I pointed that out, you moved the goal
> posts.
>
> Again: not one clearly away from water:

However, clearly away from water deep enough to swim and dive in, which
falsifies a "lakeside" lifestyle.

That's what you believe, but you simply don't know. The comparative data sya
otherwise.



the anatomical & physiol.evidence,
> which you "forget".


You mean the evidence that savanna adapted Homo can out run a horse and
live in the Sahara Desert?

Don't talk such nonsense: some humans can run marathons, but it's ridiculous
to believe that H.erectus did: they were much heavier than we, had shorter
tibiae, longer femoral necks etc. We know that at least some H.erectus
dived a lot: they had ear exostoses. Also, the dense bones of H.erectus can
only reasonably be explained by frequent diving (H.e. or their immediate
ancestors), exactly (although to a lesser degree) as in all other
thick-boned mammals: the usual PA "explanations" are just-so fabrications &
too ridiculous to mention (bee brood eating, carnivor liver consumption,
head banging & such nonsense). H.erectus could easily have walked along
rivers & beaches, even run for short distances, why not, but no doubt they
spent a lot of time in water, colelcting aquatic plants, diving for
shellfish, catching drowned wildebeest, whatever.

But no doubt you believe they got to Flores running over your savanna....


> .. moister than today,

Not enough moisture difference to remove the Sahara Desert, didn't you
read Dennell?

Man, that there was desert, does that mean they lived in thedesert?? A bit
serious please.




> > Of course, almost always were the cheetahs are found, they utilize
> > scrublands, grasslands etc. occasionally also. Of course, early Homo
> > could get right out into the Sahara Desert with gazelles, thus leaving
> > the open-water hippos, fish and turtles far behind. This proves Homo
> > not descended from Indian Ocean divers.
> >
> > Nonsense: you have to prove that there was no water.
>
>
> Nonsense: you have to prove "always
> near lakes or seas." And I never said there was NO water, just not
> enough to swim and dive in. Hay 2001 and Clark 1992 took care of that.
>
> 1) Already admitting water.

Already admitting water not deep enough to dive in?


Sigh. You'll nezver get it. My hypothesis is that our ancestors once dived
parttime for food. Okidoki? That this or that fossil (when alive) did or did
not dive doesn't contradict that.



Now prove there was no "large" water.

Even if a lake were nearby, it wouldn't change the fact
that the sites are alongside the small runnels, so they are still
NEARER the small (no swimming) bodies of water than lakeside. Ever see
anyone dive in 50 cm of water? :-)


See above. Try to be relevant.


R. L. Hay and Kyser, T. K., 2003
Chemical sedimentology and paleoenvironmental history of Lake
Odduvai, a Pliocene lake in northern Tanzania. Geological Society of
America Bulletin: Vol. 113, No. 12, pp. 1505-1521.
(PS: Marc, you have read this paper have you not?)

I haven't read it. If you think there's something in it that contradicts my
scenario, let me know.


> 2) Whatever: we have the anat.& Physiol.evidence.


And we have Homo that can outrun a horse and live in the Sahara Desert
during the Plio/Pleistocene. Not much of an advertisement
for an aquatic past is it?

Some humans (carrying water usu.) can outrun a horse (how many??), but it's
ridiculous to think that a heavy animal with long +-horizontal femoral neck
like H.erectus could do that. You seem to believe that erectus was identical
to sapiens. They were different, eg, heavier & slower, IOW, our ancestors
are recently developing faster running speeds.



> > The physiological & anatomical data are clear enough.
>
>
> Sure, like fat humans can't outrun a race horse.
>
> Exactly. One has to be a real fool if one believed humans regularly
outrun
> horses.

One has to be a bigger fool to think humans regularly dive to ten
meters.

Never heard of Ama??


>
>
> >
> > Etc. Rest repetitions. Better things to do. Best --Marc

Yes, like double checking papers, before publication, that have foolish
data in them like:
"semi-aquatic" mountain beavers.

They live in "areas that contain second growth tree species, shrubs, and
prefer to be near water", eat "forbs, grasses, and even ferns such as sword
fern and bracken fern." Their enamel microwear resembles that of afarensis.
Savanna IYO?

But try to be relevant: this has nothing to do with Homo, of course.




> http://tinyurl.com/b9t27
> "For the past fifteen million years, the East African Rift Valley has
> been a unique geological environment which contains many enormous
> freshwater lakes. Paleoanthropological evidence clearly indicates that
> hominids evolved in East Africa, and that early Homo inhabited the Rift
> Valley lake shores."
>
> Something may have been at the lake shores, but it wasn't Homo
> swimming.
>
> 1) Ah? How do you know? any evidence??
> 2) Again "forgetting" the comparative evidence??
>
> These people have not read the literature Marc, you have been deceived.
>
> Dominguez-Rodrigo (2001), Hay (2001), Isaac (1977), Feibel (1993) etc.
> say no deep water.
>
> Feibel's more recent work suggests a connection between the Indian Ocean &
> Turkana. This is now confirmed by Trauth, M. H. et al. Late Cenozoic
> Moisture History of East Africa. Science DOI: 10.1126/science.1112964







> Rift Valley lake fish and shellfish provided brain-specific nutrition for
> early Homo.
>
> Broadhurst CL, Cunnane SC, Crawford MA.
>
> 22nd Century Nutrition Inc., Cloverly, MD 20905-4007, USA. cleigh@xxxxxxxx
>
> An abundant, balanced dietary intake of long-chain polyunsaturated fatty
> acids is an absolute requirement for sustaining the very rapid expansion
of
> the hominid cerebral cortex during the last one to two million years. The
> brain contains 600 g lipid/kg, with a long-chain polyunsaturated fatty
acid
> profile containing approximately equal proportions of arachidonic acid and
> docosahexaenoic acid. Long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acid deficiency at
> any stage of fetal and/or infant development can result in irreversible
> failure to accomplish specific components of brain growth. For the past
> fifteen million years, the East African Rift Valley has been a unique
> geological environment which contains many enormous freshwater lakes.
> Paleoanthropological evidence clearly indicates that hominids evolved in
> East Africa, and that early Homo inhabited the Rift Valley lake shores.
> Although earlier hominid species migrated to Eurasia, modern Homo sapiens
is
> believed to have originated in Africa between 100 and 200 thousand years
> ago, and subsequently migrated throughout the world. A shift in the
hominid
> resource base towards more high-quality foods occurred approximately two
> million years ago; this was accompanied by an increase in relative brain
> size and a shift towards modern patterns of fetal and infant development.
> There is evidence for both meat and fish scavenging, although
sophisticated
> tool industries and organized hunting had not yet developed. The earliest
> occurrences of modern H. sapiens and sophisticated tool technology are
> associated with aquatic resource bases. Tropical freshwater fish and
> shellfish have long-chain polyunsaturated lipid ratios more similar to
that
> of the human brain than any other food source known. Consistent
consumption
> of lacustrine foods could have provided a means of initiating and
sustaining
> cerebral cortex growth without an attendant increase in body mass. A
modest
> intake of fish and shellfish (6-12% total dietary energy intake) can
provide
> more arachidonic acid and especially more docosahexaenoic acid than most
> diets contain today. Hence, 'brain-specific' nutrition had and still has
> significant potential to affect hominid brain evolution.
>
>
> :-)
>
> What more must I say??


"Paleoanthropological evidence clearly indicates that hominids evolved
in
East Africa, and that early Homo inhabited the Rift Valley lake
shores."


PA evidence shows apiths living in E & S.Africa, Chad etc. and Homo living
in E & S & N.Africa & Europe & S & E.Asia.

You might say to the authors: "stop poluting the literature with
foolish nonsense."

Dominguez-Rodrigo (2001), Feibel (1992), Hay (2001), Isaac (1977) etc.
etc.




>
>
> ______
>
>
>
> > ______
> >
> >
> > eg, fossil remains
> > > from 3 Early Pleist.localities in lacustrine deposits in the An Nafud
> > desert
> > > 27°N NW.Saudi-Arabia .. Fish & turtle are also present, indicating
> > > perennial open water. .. Early Pleist.Anatolia also appears to have
> > been
> > > moister than today .. with both humid & dry seasons . .. Kashafrud
> Basin
> > > 36°N in NE.Iran, Oldowan-type stone artefacts were found in the
> > palaeo-shore
> > > deposits of a vast shallow Late Plio/Early Pleist.lake ..
> >
> > Yes, "vast shallow lake" that fluctuated or dried up often. Show one
> > site that has been determined to have been on the edge of this lake, or
> > even demonstrate this lake was even present when tools were deposited.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dmanisi ..
> > > abundant local water resources & a fairly open landscape with forests
> > found
> > > on river banks & nearby mountain slopes .. only 60 km from the
Caspian,
> > > which may then have joined the Black Sea
> >
> >
> > 60 km is considered near? May have been?????
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .. increasing aridity *after*
> > > the hominid occupation,
> >
> >
> > More arid AFTER, got that? Early Homo adapted to drier, not wetter
> > conditions, proving once again no need for an aquatic past.
> >
> >
> > leading to the expansion of steppe grasslands ...
> > > hominids' colonising abilities were constrained to a particular mix of
> > > habitats within a small area."
> >
> > Of course if your are following savanna animals around, what evidence
> > is there to suggest otherwise.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Instead of denying the presence of large waters
> >
> >
> > You cite from a paper that was meant to be a generalized overview, not
> > a site report.
> > Nowhere in Dennell's paper does he contradict the original work of Hay
> > (2003), Feibel (1992), Dominguez-Rodrigo (2001), or Isaac (1977) who
> > have proven no large bodies of water were present when most of the
> > sites were occupied. Do you think you know the difference between a
> > historical overview and a site report? You have just confirmed above
> > that you don't.
> >
> >
> >
> > (as proved by our anatomy &
> > > physiology),
> >
> >
> > Marc (the non-professional), can tell the depth of the lake water 2
> > Mya by just looking at the length of a person's nose today, yet
> > professional geologists working in sediments 2 My old cannot tell the
> > depth of a shallow runnel? You wonder why peer-review journal editors
> > throw your submitted papers in the wastebasket?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > it would be more productive to try to find out which particular
> > > mix exactly.
> >
> >
> > They already have, your ignorance of the published literature is hardly
> > an argument.
> >
> >
> >
> > Note grasslands (very abundant at the waterside) don't mean
> > > savanna.
> >
> >
> > Nor does it mean early Homo found in those grasslands were eating
> > grass, but savanna adpapted animals were.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Marc Verhaegen
> > >
> > > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT1



.

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