Re: Homo & molluscs
- From: Rich Travsky <" traRvEsky"@hotmMOVEail.com>
- Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:56:21 -0600
Marc Verhaegen wrote:
>
> "Rich Travsky" <" traRvEsky"@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote in message
> news:431BD5D3.122FB1A@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> > >
> > > You keep missing the point:
> > > - AAT (shoreline adaptations sometime after the H/P split) is based on
> > > comparative data, eg, it's ridiculous to believe that olfactory
> reduction is
> > > for running over some plain, same for tens of other human features
> (AFAIK
> > > the *only* human feature that is often seen in cursorial mammals is long
> > > legs, but this is also often seen in wading birds).
> > > - So far, you completely fail to explain how archeol.data falsify this.
> What
> > > I see is a fast dispersal of Homo to Java & Algeria. Give 1 reason why
> not
> > > along the coasts.
> > > Sorry, Lee, no time for empty "discussions".
> >
> > Coward. He refuted you point by point. He made time for you...
>
> Fool & coward.
>
> 1) You're too stupid to understand that Lee nowhere contradicted our
> scenario, see below.
> 2) You keep evading the comparative evidence.
Coward. Respond to Lee then.
> > > "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > news:1125285360.011026.45020@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Marc Verhaegen wrote:
> > > > "Lee Olsen" <paleocity@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > > news:1124997524.511685.102370@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > >> R Zhu et al 2004 "New evidence on the earliest human presence at
> high
> > > > northern latitudes in northeast Asia" Nature 431: 559-562
> > > >
> > > > > Marc, you are simply to kind,
> > > >
> > > > I know. :-)
> > > >
> > > > > thank you for calling my attention to the Nature article, I had
> > > forgotten
> > > > all about it. I will be adding that article to my growing list of
> > > > savanna-adapted hominid evidence (what a keeper!). Notice this quote
> in
> > > the
> > > > article above: "The lowest layer, about 1.66 Myr, provides the oldest
> > > record
> > > > of stone-tool processing of animal tissues in east Asia." Your post
> did
> > > not
> > > > mention any processing evidence of leaves, aquatic plants, nor is
> there
> > > any
> > > > in the body of the paper. But what the original article does mention,
> that
> > > > your abstract does not, are the type of fauna found with the tools.
> Want
> > > to
> > > > guess which fauna?:-) You got it, hyenas, rhinoceros, ostrich, etc.,
> all
> > > > the same animals one typically finds out on the hot, sweaty, sun-baked
> > > > savannas in Africa.
> > > >
> > > > So? Any reason why you think these animals could not have lived next
> to
> > >
> > > Next to??? Define next; how long is a string? None of those animals
> > > live next to a lakeshore and marsh environment.
> > >
> > > > "The sediments, numerous molluscan shells (Gyraulus chihliensis and
> > > > Planorbis youngi), and leaves and fruits of aquatic plants (for
> example
> > > > Trapa sp.) in MJG-III indicate a low-energy lakeshore or marsh
> environment
> > > > rich in organic materials."?
> > >
> > > And what is your point? Not all places that have potable water for
> > > animals and Homo do not always have the molluscan/plants you mentioned,
> > > what did they do then, starve?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > "Shallow water" the Nature report says. Yes, modern Hadza set up
> their
> > > > hunting blinds near shallow water, but NEVER where they live. Their
> base
> > > > camps are found 1-2 km away (O'Connell et all. 2002:850).
> > > >
> > > > Fine. And? Your point?
> > >
> > > Hazda don't live near water for a very good reason, it's dangerous, and
> > > they do not want to scare away any game that would possibly make a
> > > meal. Time getting water is kept to a minimum.
> > >
> > > We all know how modern Hadza live,
> > >
> > > Yes, they live well away from any water source because they know that
> > > near a water source is the worst possible place to live.
> > >
> > > but we're talking
> > > > here about our ancestors 1, 2, 3... Ma. Anything in the Hazda's
> lifestyle
> > > > that contradicts our scenario?
> > >
> > > Anything in the Hazda's lifestyle that contradicts the savanna
> > > scenario? [a little negative argument for you also]
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > "At Olduvai the Acheulean sites tend to lie along the former stream
> > > > channels away from the playa lakes." Hay 1967a, 1976.
> > > >
> > > > OK: that's where the stones are, no? So? Your point?
> > >
> > > Away from the lakes is the point. No diving required.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > "The earliest Eurasians preferentially occupied grasslands and open
> > > scrub-
> > > > and wood-lands, as in East Africa. Homo ergaster/erectus in East
> Africa
> > > > after 1.7 Ma is associated with hot and dry conditions, and open
> > > grasslands;
> > > > its post-cranial anatomy, with its long limbs was geared to
> long-distance
> > > > walking across open ground, and to heat dispersal through upright
> > > posture."
> > > > Dennell 2003
> > > >
> > > > Yes, we know many PAs used to associate
> > >
> > > With all due respect Marc, you are not a PA; you are not qualified to
> > > speak for "many" PAs. Many??? This is another wooden-man argument. Many
> > > Mds in the Netherlands believe in little green men from outer space.
> > > Prove me wrong, since you like the negative argument approach so well.
> > >
> > > He with such environments (Wheeler's
> > > > ridiculous midday foraging ideas),
> > >
> > > Lip-service-flame job, not worth a reply.
> > >
> > > but most PAs know better now
> > > > http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm .
> > >
> > > Exactly who are you putting words into the mouths of now? Did the
> > > people who think that mountain beavers are semi-aquatic determine this
> > > revelation?
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > This paper once again demonstrates the overwhelming trend for
> > > savanna-bone
> > > > processing by hominids, and once again zero evidence for marsh-plant
> > > > exploitation. I need to coin a new term here, hmm,
> > > > 'littoral-big-game-hunting'? No matter where you go, the evidence for
> > > > savanna-bone processing always precedes shell/aquatic plant processing
> > > > evidence, be it swamps or sea-side.
> > > >
> > > > Please, don't confuse the facts with your prejudices: the paper shows
> > > early
> > > > Homo in China next to hyena, rhino, ostrich, shellfish, aquatic
> plants.
> > >
> > > Mosquitoes live there also, do you think Homo was eating the
> > > mosquitoes?
> > >
> > > The
> > > > paper also give good reasons to believe these early Homo used stones
> to
> > > > butcher animal tissues.
> > >
> > > Yes, that is the factual savanna evidence.
> > >
> > > Ever thought why our nearest relatives chimps (who
> > > > hunt a lot), even savanna chimps, don't do this? Ever crossed your
> mind
> > > that
> > > > our ancestors might have acquired these skills at the seashores?
> > >
> > > Don't confuse your prejudices with the facts. This is about Homo, you
> > > do remember saying that? Want me to look it up? Adding more scenarios
> > > and dreaming about what chimps were doing 2 Mya is nothing more than a
> > > smoke screen to cover the fact that Homo was a savanna adapted
> > > creature, no imagination required.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > IOW, you fail to give 1 argument against AAT:
> > >
> > > IOW, you fail to give 1 argument against the savanna scenario
> > >
> > > that our anestors were
> > > > littoral once,
> > >
> > > No, there is zero evidence that Homo was ever littoral.
> > >
> > > because this explains our nakedness,
> > >
> > > Like you speak for all biologists. See Langdon for better scenario.
> > >
> > > SC fat,
> > >
> > > No, you need to read Landon's new book, he gives a much better scenario
> > > for this.
> > >
> > > olfactory
> > > > reduction,
> > >
> > > Explained nicely by the small-hunting hypothesis.
> > >
> > > masticatory reduction,
> > >
> > > This reduction is still going on today. It is not a function of a
> > > littoral lifestyle today, so there is no reason to believe it ever was.
> > >
> > > large brain,
> > >
> > > An impedance to diving.
> > >
> > > tool use
> > >
> > > Too bad it has been conclusively proven that some of those tools are a
> > > function of butchering savanna animals and none have ever been proven
> > > to be a function of shell or Trapa processing, and if you say you don't
> > > need tools to process shells/Trapa, then you contradict your own
> > > argument about aquatics governing tool development. You are letting
> > > your prejudices get in the way of the hard facts etc etc.
> > >
> > > etc.etc; many times
> > > > better than savanna-running ideas.
> > >
> > > IYO, not Leakey's, not Langdon's, nor Boaz.
> > >
> > > > _________
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > "The timing of early human dispersal to Asia is a central issue in
> the
> > > > study
> > > > > of human evolution. Excavations in predominantly lacustrine
> sediments at
> > > > > Majuangou, Nihewan basin, north China, uncovered four layers of
> > > > indisputable
> > > > > hominin stone tools. Here we report magnetostratigraphic results
> that
> > > > > constrain the age of the four artefact layers to an interval of
> nearly
> > > > > 340,000 yr between the Olduvai subchron and the Cobb Mountain event.
> The
> > > > > lowest layer, about 1.66 Myr, provides the oldest record of
> stone-tool
> > > > > processing of animal tissues in east Asia. The highest layer, at
> about
> > > > 1.32
> > > > > Myr, correlates with the stone tool layer at Xiaochangliang,
> previously
> > > > > considered the oldest archaeological site in this region. The
> findings
> > > at
> > > > > Majuangou indicate that the oldest known human presence in northeast
> > > Asia
> > > > at
> > > > > 40° N is only slightly younger than that in western Asia. This
> result
> > > > > implies that a long yet rapid migration from Africa, possibly
> initiated
> > > > > during a phase of warm climate, enabled early human populations to
> > > inhabit
> > > > > northern latitudes of east Asia over a prolonged period."
> > > > >
> > > > > This quote appears within the text: "The sediments, numerous
> molluscan
> > > > > shells (Gyraulus chihliensis and Planorbis youngi), and leaves and
> > > fruits
> > > > of
> > > > > aquatic plants (for example Trapa sp.) in MJG-III indicate a
> low-energy
> > > > > lakeshore or marsh environment rich in organic materials."
> > > > >
> > > > > (thanks, Stephen)
> > > > >
> > > > > Trapa: shallow water, edible seeds.
> > > > >
> > > > > --Marc
.
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