Re: Impeccable


Matt wrote:
> Jim McGinn wrote:
> > Matt wrote:
> > > Jim McGinn wrote:
> >
> > > > I think you have the basic idea. Basically they assumed communal
> > > > territorialism to survive the dry season. More specifically they were
> > > > trying to avoid poverty induced predatory massacres that could cause
> > > > the decimation of the whole community at the community site during the
> > > > depths of the dry season.
> > >
> > > Would you expound on "poverty induced predatory massacres" for me? I
> > > understand your use of "poverty" to be a result of diminished
> > > resources, but I am not familiar with your position on how or why this
> > > poverty would cause predatory massacres.
> >
> > It has to do with the opportunistic nature of predatory behavior.
> > Read the posts at this following link very carefully and
> > let me know if you have anymore questions:
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?P3314603C
> >
> > Also, check out this link:
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Y5413103C
> >
> > Do these links help. Are you less confused, more confused?
>
> I'm pretty sure I understand them. You seem to be saying that our
> ancestors were able to remain fit, and so they survived. Your
> proposition is that they remained fit by protecting their fruit &
> vegetable resources. Correct?

Really? No. This is much too vague. There's a lot of
animals that can be described as: " . . . protecting their fruit &
vegetable resources." The actual behaviors I indicated in my
hypothesis were more specific and explicit than you are indicating
here. It might be a good idea to read that part again.

What you are saying is correct. But it is lacking in a
lot of the specific details that are absolutely necessary
to understanding peculiarity of the selective factors
described in this hypothesis.

> > > > The ultimate test of any hypothesis is whether it solves problems that
> > > > the hypothesis didn't originally anticipate. As I suspect you realize,
> > > > sophisticated tool using/making shows up rather abruptly at about 2.5
> > > > mya. A long standing issue is how did these behaviors evolve. Notions
> > > > that our chimplike earliest ancestors employed sticks and stones to
> > > > hunt and/or scavenge don't make sense. The communal territorialism of
> > > > my hypothesis explains the tool using abilities. And the social
> > > > selective aspects of this same scenario explain the emergence of the
> > > > intellectual ablities associated with the same.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Here is where I loose your timeline, I think. My understanding is that
> > > you are proposing that ~8.1mya, climate changes caused wet and dry
> > > seasons where these ancient animals lived, causing periods of resource
> > > depletion, or "poverty" (correct terminology?), causing this resource
> > > protection behavior.
> >
> >
> > I think you have the right idea. Check out this link:
> > http://www.cix.co.uk/~awhitec/HumanOrigins/Climate.htm
> >
>
> This was only somewhat helpful. I am aware of the mountain effect.
> This site speaks to changes in climate in eastern Africa 6-8 mya. I
> would appreciate it if you'd let me know where the ~8.1 mya date came
> from. Not that changes in climate didn't change gradually,

Climate changes rapidly. It shifts.

> but I
> haven't found where you got that particular figure yet, which I think
> would help me understand your reasoning.

I haven't been able to find my reference for the 8.1 mya figure.

So, all I have is the following, which you may have already seen.

http://www.cix.co.uk/~awhitec/HumanOrigins/Climate.htm

This geological event created a monsoon that released vast quantities
of rain, drying out the air that flowed through it. This same air flows
across East Africa, and caused rainfall to drop sharply, drying the
rain-forests and replacing them with broken scrub and woodland. It is
no coincidence that the monsoon intensified 6-8 million years ago -
the time at which the common ancestor lived.

>
> >
> > This new climate, what climatologists call monsoon climate,
> > is characterized by a distinct and severe dry season in the
> > context of what is mostly a moist, rainy, climate.
> >
> > Our chimpanzee-like ancestors were one of many species that
> > now had to develop somekind of strategy to deal with the
> > dry season and implications thereof.
> >
> >
> > Check out this link:
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z2B12103C
> >
> > I cut and pasted the following from the above link:
> >
> > *** begin cut and paste ***
> >
> > There are two strategies species might take to survive
> > the situational factors of the dry season. 1) Don't
> > put all your eggs in one basket. This is the strategy
> > that most of the herbivorous species of that time
> > adopted. It is reflected in their quadrupedalism which
> > is a very efficient and (most importantly) proficient
> > (fast to escape predators) for of locomotion. Or 2)
> > put all your eggs in one basket and guard that basket.
> > This is the approach that hominids assumed. It
> > involves communalism, mob-oriented attack strategies to
> > prevent inmigration from food competitor species,
> > bipedalism to free the hands so that projectiles can be
> > employed in the continuing battle to protect the food
> > resources, mostly fruit trees, upon which they depended
> > to survive the dry season and the predation from
> > sophisticated social predators like lions, bear-sized
> > hyena, and wolves.
> >
> > *** end cut and paste ***
> >
>
> Well, I need two clarifications here. The Sahelanthropus tchadensis
> fossil is thought by some to be the oldest hominid fossil, which is
> currently a controversy. I assume that you're position is that it is a
> hominid fossil,

Yes. (I highly suggest reading the taphonomy and environmental
evidence indicated in the Sahel paper. It's very supportive of the
same in my hypothesis.)

> as your hypothesis would require that Homo and Pan
> (which is unfortunately also being debated, which makes this
> conversation difficult) split ~8.1 mya as the climate in Africa changed

Yes.

> (I also assume that a ~6-7 mya hominid fossil being found in Chad
> rather than Ethiopia doesn't affect your hypothesis).

No.

> My question is
> why this behavior is indicative of Homo behavior, as it seems to be
> observable in not only most, if not all, primates, but in other
> animals as well?

I think this is because, as I mentioned above, you have not yet
correctly conceptualized the behavior in my hypothesis. There's much,
much more to it than can be accurately captured by the phrase: " . . .
they remained fit by protecting their fruit & vegetable resources."

> This protection of territory doesn't seem to me to be
> an exclusively Human behavior, so I'm a little confused on your
> position here and would appreciate some clarification.

I make no claim to exclusivity of territoriality. I do make
claim to the type of territoriality indicated explicitly therein.

> Also, there are other primates that throw things at their "enemies"
> (classic piece of toilet humor in fact) so I'm not sure how this
> indicates not only a move to bipedalism, but a distinct evolutionary
> aspect of Homos resulting from (see above) behavior to protect
> territory.

That there are other primates that throw things is not a challenge at
all to my hypothesis. In fact if they didn't then my hypothesis would
be lacking some very important preadaptive behavior. The difference is
that selective factors, as I delineated. And, as I hope you realize,
the peculiarity of these selective factors is completely dependent on
the dry season and it predatory implications with respect to the, all
important, level of poverty in the community. Do you see this? (It's
very important that you answer this question honestly.) If you don't
then you have missed the whole point of the hypothesis.

>
> In short, I'm not sure if your position is that Human ancestors
> diverged from Chimpanzee ancestors approx. 8.1 million years ago or
> not. Is that part of your hypothesis?

I think the best evidence is that it happened 6 to 10 mya. It really
makes little or no difference to my hypothesis as to exactly what that
date is, IMO.

> If it is, I need some
> clarification on why behavior observed in both humans and chimps
> (territorialism) is not an intrinsic part of your hypothesis on human
> origins. It seems to me that it is.

It seems to me that it is, also. Maybe I'm missing your point
altogether.

>
> > > I guess I need some clarification on what
> > > happened in the meantime, until ~5.6 my later there is evidence of tool
> > > making. I could, also, use some clarification regarding how
> > > specifically communal territorialism would lead to tool making. It
> > > seems to me that you propose that throwing sticks and rocks, and making
> > > noises, kept competing herbivores away, so why the need for any more
> > > sophisticated tools than what was immediately available (why the need
> > > to begin making tools)?
> >
> >
> > These are all very good questions. More importantly, these
> > questions indicate you are making a reasonable effort to
> > comprehend this hypothesis. (As you can see by the other
> > responses in this NG that this effort is very rare in this
> > NG.)
> >
> > communal selection:
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?N2126203C
> >
> > community vs. community
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2221503C
> >
> > Be careful not to assume that communal selection and community
> > vs. community competition are the same thing. Communal
> > selection describes the origins of Apith lifestyle. Community
> > vs. community competition describes the selective factors that
> > would select for communities being better and better at
> > achieving their communally territorialistic goals.
> >
> > The Selective Engine of Human Consciousness and Intellect
> > http://makeashorterlink.com/?S1822203C
> >
>
> I believe I understand your differentiation here. Communal selection
> is refering to traits that are selected for because they make the
> community more viable in relation to all competitors, and community vs.
> community competition selects for traits that make a community more
> viable in relation to other communities. Correct?

Kinda. Communal selection refers to the fact that when the adaptive
behavior of this hypothesis failed (resulting in the impoverishment of
the whole community) this could doom the community as a whole. This,
of course, was a result of the predator siege/massacre behavior that I
theorized to have been present in the behaviors of late miocene
predators.

The community vs. community aspect refers to the fact that, in the
context of these same behaviors/assumptions, the communities of this
scenario are in competition with each other in that the predators will
seek out the community that is relatively most impoverished and tend to
ignore others in the area. This community vs. community aspect
indicates that they had to keep getting better and better at achieving
their resource maintenance goals. IOW, this is represents the origins
of what we might now refer to as economic competition between
cities/states. This provided an autocatalytic selective aspect to this
scenario that rewards communities that are able to get better and
better at the described behavior. This is the engine of human
intelligence, consciousness, culture, etc.


>
> Again, I need some clarification on why tool making came so much later
> in the development of humans if (and I'm assuming I don't understand
> your hypothesis here) the pressures that caused the selected behavior
> of tool making happened so long before any of the early tools that have
> been found have been dated to.

I hope I understand your question. I think you'd agree that tool
making that is evident about 2.5 mya is the result of two things. The
first being an increase in their manipulative abilities. And,
secondly, an increase in their intelligence and consciousness. I hope
you'd agree that the rock throwing, stick-wielding aspects of my
hypothesis describe the origins of the manipulative abilities. I doubt
you'd dispute this. The intelligence and consciousness aspects of it
are a result of the community vs. community selective aspects/pressures
that I discussed above. My thinking is that this would have been a
slow process, taking millions of years. Millions of years of
autocatalytic selective pressure for these communities to become better
and better than each other at achieving their resource management goals
year after year, dry season after dry season.

>
> I'm afraid I'm still fuzzy on what your hypothesis essentialy is. I
> think I need some form of abstract, or something consolidating your
> position into a (short or long) paragraph so I know what specific
> aspects of human behavior you are saying are the result of the
> development of a monsoon season in Ethiopia. Territorialism,
> bipedalism, vocalization, toolk making, etc.?

I'm not sure if things can be categorized as you suggest.

What I see in my scenario is an ape that is being selected for its
ability to be a productive member of a new biological entity, the
hominid community, in that if he/she doesn't the predators will take
out the community as a whole. This entails the selective origins of
all the traits and behaviors that distinguish humans from the other
species. These are extremely unique selective factors unknown in any
other species: intelligence, communicativeness, etc. This was a
species whose survival was tied to the ability of its community to
preserve resources to avoid decimation of the community as a whole.
There is no one behavior predicted by these strange selective factors,
IMO, instead we'd predict a diversity of behaviors. And this gives us
some hint as to the selective origins of human cultural abilties. This
is not just group selection it's a very particular form of group
selection.

> > Matt, let me know if these links do or do not give you a
> > better understanding of what I'm getting at.
> >
> > Jim
>
> They gave me a much better understanding of what you're getting at, but
> also raised more questions, as you can tell.
>
> I appreciate you're taking this time with me and being as patient with
> me as you have been. I look forward to your response.

It's a tough subject. I think you're catching on, but I'm not sure.
Maybe the following will help with giving you a better understanding of
how to flesh out the backdrop of the scneario I layed out:

Maybe the thing that is most difficult for modern humans to comprehend
about the earliest years of hominid evolution was the ecological
realities. We now live at a time when humans dominate. During the
late miocene large migratory mammals and the predators that preyed on
them dominated the landscape. And because of the annual dry season
there was constant activity. It was a very different place.

If you have any more questions let me know.

Regards,

Jim

.

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