Re: Absence of Canines in Apiths

"Jim McGinn" <jimmcginn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1134439608.859570.146730@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> > Or let's say that the tiny elephants, or
> > small rhinos -- which are known to have
> > existed -- fail to cope in much the same
> > way.)
>
> You see a speciation event as an opportunity to hypothesize any
> eventuality.

A 'speciation event' will happen in a small
isolated population. Apart from that, there
are unlikely to be any particular rules. Usually,
of course, there will be almost no competition,
since the adaptations to fit the new niche will
rarely be easy to acquire, and the process will
take many generations to complete.

Of course, your own scenario -- and that of
standard PA -- ignores issues of competition
entirely. You can't cope with them, so the
easiest thing is to pretend that (for some
unknown reason) they are not present.

> For you it's a theoretical free for all.

Yep. Why not?

> Islands that magically appear.

There is no magic about the appearance of
islands. They appear and disappear in huge
numbers over geological time.

> Shifts in diet (to roots) to help explain away the
> tooth data that clearly indicates a dry season.

Since hominids DO eat roots, and chimps
DON'T, the change occurred at a certain
point in hominid evolution. Where in time
do you locate that point? And what were
the changes that took place at that point in
hominid dentition to cope with the sand
and gravel taken into the mouth?

> Shifts in diet (to roots) to help explain away the
> tooth data that clearly indicates a dry season.

The "clearly indicates a dry season" is a
perfect example of the sloppiness (and
complete lack of imagination) of standard
PA. That you have bought into such shallow
'thinking' illustrates (a) your naivety, in
believing those guys know anything at all;
and (b) your stupidity.

> This is nothing but science based wishful thinking.

The 'wishful thinking' here is entirely on
your side. You fail to see (i) that there
was a fairly drastic change in diet;
(ii) that the defence of razor-sharp teeth
were no longer necessary
(iii) that the use of simple tools came in
with bipedalism (Darwin knew this;
modern PA -- and you -- have completely
forgotten it;) these simple tools -- digging
sticks -- enabled hominids to get at roots
not available before to their ancestors;
(iv) that roots DID come into hominid
diet at a certain point; your theory does
not attempt to cope with that fact.

> > I know you have some daft stuff about
> > 'drier food' -- but what _exactly_ ?
>
> grains, nuts, bugs, dried fruit,

Dried fruit does not, in effect, exist in nature.
Grains usually need grinding first -- the job
cannot be done by hominoid teeth -- and
then baking. (Ever tried to eat uncooked flour
or uncooked rice?) Hard teeth are not needed
for bugs -- their soft parts will be digested in
the gut and the rest passed out. There are no
(or very few) nuts which humans can eat that
chimps can't.

In other words, your theory does not begin
to have a basis for the early hominid diet.
So you don't have the beginnings of an
account of hominid speciation.

In this respect, you are 100% identical to
standard PA. You have tamely followed
them down their path of total ecological
ignorance. No surprise there, of course.

> > My scenario explains the evolution of
> > hard teeth in hominids (the use of digging
> > sticks meant that they incorporated roots
> > into their diet {therefore taking in sand
> > and small pebbles} AND their use of
> > clubs meant that they no longer needed
> > to have razor-sharp canines).
>
> Obviously you just tacked this on.

It is certainly not 'tacked on'. It's basic.
When hominids became bipedal, and
began to use tools, their first application
was to imitate baboons, and dig roots so
that they could survive the dry season.
Soon, after that, they would have driven
out baboons from their areas, thus
becoming able to greatly increase their
own density.

The absence of the 'baboon virus gene' in
humans is strong evidence that baboon
were excluded from all hominid habitats.

> You have no shift in climate

Yep. You've got that right, at least.

> so you have to explanation for the tooth data

I have given a full and detailed explanation --
a far better one than you have ever dreamed
of for your theory.

> that indicates the emergence of
> a dry season. Your scenario is refuted by this evidence.

You should not be so credulous. All this
is a PA fairy story. Dry seasons are next to
universal in the tropics. All species endure
them. When they become too severe,
desertification sets in, the vegetation goes,
and non-desert-adapted species move on
or die out.


> > > > > There can be no new niches in a stable biota.
> > > >
> > > > That's a tautology. But there never has been
> > > > a completely stable biota.
> > >
> > > Wishful nonsense.
> >
> > What is 'wishful nonsense'? Are you
> > claiming that completely stable biota
> > have existed? If so, when and where?
>
> Look up a concept called punctuated equillibrium.

A McGinnian dodge. The MgGinnian
death spiral starts.

> > Skip the abuse and deal with the issues.
> > What ELSE can happen except that
> > habitats move, when climates change?
>
> See my hypothesis for what ELSE happened in the earliest years of
> hominid evolution.

The MgGinnian death spiral is
speeding up.

> > > > However, with hominids we have something
> > > > most remarkable; it is not just a new species
> > > > in a new niche, it is a wholly new taxon with a
> > > > radically different form of locomotion and
> > > > radically different way of life from its ancestors,
> > > > and from all other species.
> > >
> > > You're talking in generalities. New taxon?
> >
> > Err . . yes. You might have heard of it.
> > Its distinctive feature is bipedalism.
>
> Oh brother. Whatever, what's your point here. You are talking in
> generalities, to no good effect.

The loops of the MgGinnian death
spiral get smaller and smaller.

> > > > Even IF you had a set of rules which made
> > > > some sense about the ways in which species
> > > > came into existence (and you don't) they would
> > > > hardly apply in this instance. In some ways, we
> > > > can think of that taxon as waiting to spring into
> > > > existence for many millions of years, but unable
> > > > to do so until it found the right opportunity.
> > >
> > > Your understanding of evolutionary theory is obviously grounded in
> > > deliberate ignorance. Your approach is plainly nonscientific.
> >
> > Skip the abuse and deal with the issues.
>
> No, Paul. What you stated above is unforgivable.

The MgGinnian death spiral is about to
reach its climax.

> > WHY is this approach 'non-scientific'?
> > Imagination is a part of science. Einstein
> > imagined what it would be to ride on a
> > beam of light. Was he being 'non-scientific'?
>
> He was specific. You're not. You're spouting vague generalities that
> can mean about anything.

The MgGinnian death spiral ends in
its achievement of total inanity.


Paul.



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Absence of Canines in Apiths
    ... >> You see a speciation event as an opportunity to hypothesize any ... >> Shifts in diet (to roots) to help explain away the ... >> tooth data that clearly indicates a dry season. ... > point in hominid evolution. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Indisputable
    ... >> followed by long dry seasons. ... > when hominid first emerged. ... trend was towards ever smaller gallery forests subjected to ... afarensis practically lived in a wetland habitat. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Indisputable
    ... >>> followed by long dry seasons. ... > the Pleistocene and the evidence is that hominins did live there. ... > Sure some forests would enlarge, but the overall trend was certainly in ... evidence that indicates the absence of other hominid adaptations. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Indisputable
    ... > a species that inhabited gallery forest habitats in E Africa in the ... > seasonal climate - a deluge in the a wet season, causing floods, ... > followed by long dry seasons. ... when hominid first emerged. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Hominins Ate Tubers And Bulbs
    ... Making the shelters and digging edible ... P.robustus indicate a seasonal diet governed by hard, ... Enamel microwear by consuming dry savanna grasses differs from what is ... Wetland apes: hominid palaeo-environment and diet. ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)