Re: A'pith Predatory Realities: not like those of extant chimps (Repost from 08/2003)


Paul Crowley wrote:
<claudiusdenk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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a) How Homo cope with nocturnal predators?

Well, Homo lived in communities, city-sized, town-sized, treed
localities with multiple families/subgroups. They maintained a
relatively permanent settlement and were ecologically dominant within
the confines of these treed community sites. They did not reside in
small bands. They did not travel much.

There are too many problems with all this (under
your scenario). Such sites are wide open to
invasion by both predators, such as lions, hyenas
and leopards, and by large prey animals, such as
elephants and buffalo.

Yes, I know. In fact this is an essential aspect of my
scenario/hypothesis.

Those animals are active
by night, and there is nothing the hominids could
do to stop them.

Nothing? I disagree. In the least they can be a nuisance, throwing
rocks, waving sticks, and just making a collective ruckus.
Nevertheless I agree this would not be perfect. But, again, not only
would this lack of proficiency in their communal territorialism not be
a problem for the validity of my scenario/hypothesis but it is an
essential aspect without which my scenario would not work. Any
particular A'pith community did not have to be perfect to survive the
dry season. They just had to be a little bit better than the other
communities in their vicinity. The assumption is that the predators
would tend to collectively seek out the A'pith community site that is
most impoverished--it's members hungry, weak, fighting with each other,
starving, coming out of the trees often to get food--and ignore the
A'pith communities that still have enough resources to put up a good
fight against the opportunity seeking predators.

Those are reasons why I see a continuing reliance
on off-shore sites (not unlike modern Zanzibar)
up to fairly recent times.

If you were to explicate the details of your scenario it would become
obvious that it completely lacks a communal (group) selective aspect.
So it fails to predict the aspect that is most prominent in our
species, our communalism and all of the adaptations that coincide with
human communalism. (More specifically, there is no reason for them to
maintain group structure in your model.)

Mainland sites would
have been exploited, but always with some
difficulty.

Boats?

They rarely if ever left their treed community site.

There is only one way to deter invasions by
predators -- the males would have to constantly
patrol the hinterland (say within about 10-15 miles
of the hominid home camp), tracking and finding
any predators, killing their cubs and preventing
breeding. Elephants and buffalo would have
been harder to deter. Later, physical barriers
would have been constructed -- walls and
ditches, but they would have been practicable
in only a few places.

Contrived, unnecessary.

To answer your question, how did they cope with nocturnal predators?
Firstly I think they always had lookouts ready to alert the whole
community if predators are spotted encroaching through the treeless
habitat that surrounded them.

A hominid band (or tribe) cannot specify the kind
of land that will surround its home location. It will
change constantly. Or are you saying that they
could only live in smallish forests surrounded by
open areas?

?

In any case, the idea is silly. Lookouts would see
nothing on a dark night.

But this would not be perfect,
especially against leopards and other singular predators. Also they
did have stone tipped weapons, and they had the behavior of cooperative
engagement. Also they had the ability to get up in trees and or take
cover of some kind or another--caves etc.

This is more silliness. Hominids with stone-
tipped spears can to nothing against predators
in the dark.

Remember. It's dark for the predators also.

They'd have been easy meat, and
the predators would come for them time after
time until they were all eaten. The 'retreat to
the trees' cannot be done every night -- nor
was it. Caves are just as silly.

It was mostly the collective attack abilties that made the difference.


b) Why did some Apiths descend from the
trees to evolve into Homo, and how
did it happen?

There is no short answer to this question. You are, essentially,
asking why did apes evolve into hominids.

NO, I am not. I am trying to ask a sensible
question about your nonsensical scenario
-- which, I admit, is not easy. You say that
Apiths slept in trees. But tree-sleeping
primates select their sleeping-trees with
care. Most are quite unsuitable. None will
sleep in thorny acacias, for example. So
what kind of trees did Apiths sleep in?

We'll probably never know for sure. Just look at the fossil evidence.
Spores, etc.

This question has never been asked before.
It has never been considered before. Yet it
should have an answer.

Go for it.

When hominids began to sleep on the ground,
their habitat was no longer determined by the
presence of the right sort of sleeping trees.
Even under your scenario (insofar as it makes
any sense) the habitat of Apiths would be
different from that of Homo. So Apiths would
continue to exist, in their own patch of their
kind of woodland.

I wouldn't assume this and I don't know why you are.


My whole hypothesis (which
remains completely undisputed) is the answer to this question.

Even Lee Olsen wrecked your 'hypothesis'
the other day by pointing out that buffalo
would destroy any gardens.

I can't imagine anybody taking that seriously. A herd of buffalo is
not going to walk into treed habitat--especially not at night--where it
will be defenseless against ambush predators. More importantly, the
supposition that buffalo and other food competitors might sometimes do
this is not only not a problem for my scenario but it is an essential
part without which my scenario would not, and could not, work. Also, a
community of rock-throwing, stick-wielding A'pith would be a pretty
good deterent. Remember, in my model they don't have to be perfect and
communal territorialism, just a little bit better than the surrounding
A'pith communities in their locality. Buffalo, and all food competitor
species, will take the path of least resistance to their goal of an
easy meal.

When someone
as dopey as Olsen can do that, it's not an
hypothesis with much going for it.

c) What happened to all the tree-bound
Apiths -- who had been so successful
for so long?

Uh, Apiths were never tree bound. They only time they had to go up in
trees is when lions were in the vicinity and at night.

How did they cope with leopards?
Or hyena?

In the manner specified in my (perfect) hypothesis.

So, Paul, how are you going to work out the problem with your own
scenario? Here humans are, the most communally selected species ever
and you lack a communal selection aspect to your hypothesis.

.

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