Re: Savanna believers are stupid stupid stupid (Re: Ealine Morgan

On Oct 7, 9:52 pm, Rich Travsky <traRvE...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
nickname wrote:

On Oct 1, 12:02 am, Rich Travsky <traRvE...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
nickname wrote:
On Sep 23, 9:17 pm, Rich Travsky <traRvE...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op 11-09-2007 05:31, in artikel s_nFi.148316$fJ5.123616@pd7urf1no, Rick
Wagler <taxid...@xxxxxxx> schreef:
"Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
Op 10-09-2007 22:54, in artikel haiFi.147318$fJ5.139254@pd7urf1no, Rick
Wagler <taxid...@xxxxxxx> schreef:
"Marc Verhaegen" <m_verhae...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
Op 10-09-2007 04:53, in artikel 46E4B199.339E2...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Rich
Travsky <traRvE...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef:
Marc Verhaegen wrote:
1185624164.924831.316...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Lee Olsen
<paleoc...@xxxxxxxxxxx> schreef:
Olson:
Stupid doughboy doesn't even remember his own question:
"Be relevant, my boy: already found out why human can dive
& chimps can't?"
Me:
I don't see the word "chimp" in what you said below.
Olson with his keen insight noticed:
Chimps can't catch a kudu on the savanna,
1) Why should primates catch kudus IYO?
Yes, my boy, why on earth should primates catch kudus??
If you can effect the capture they make an excellent
source of dietary protein.

Then why don't primates run after kudus, my boy?

One does. And it is a behaviour for which
this particualar primate is well adapted.

My little boy, our max.speed is 36 km/hr over 100 m.
Keep running, my boy.
Inform a bit.

It's called persistence hunting, little one.

This is dated (1984) but the facts are unchanged (note the mention of running
down zebra and kangaroos)(need to find a better link for this one):

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0011-3204(198408%2F10)25%3A4%3C483%3...

The Energetic Paradox of Human Running and Hominid Evolution [and Comments and
Reply]
David R. Carrier, A. K. Kapoor, Tasuku Kimura, Martin K. Nickels, Satwanti,
Eugenie C. Scott, Joseph K. So, Erik Trinkaus
Current Anthropology, Vol. 25, No. 4 (Aug. - Oct., 1984), pp. 483-495

Abstract

The energetic cost of running is relatively high in man. In spite of this, humans
are adept endurance runners, capable of running down, for example, zebra and
kangaroo. Distance running is made possible for man in part by an exceptional
ability to dissipate exercise heat loads. Most mammals lose heat by panting, which
is coupled to breathing and locomotor cycles during running. This interdependence
may limit the effectiveness of panting as a means of heat dissipation. Because
sweating is not dependent on respiration, it may be more compatible with running
as a thermoregulatory mechanism. Furthermore, man's lack of body hair improves
thermal conductance while running, as it facilitates convection at the skin surface.
While horses, for example, have been shown to possess energetically optimal speeds
in each gait, the energetic cost for a man to run a given distance does not change
with speed. It is hypothesized that this is because bipedality allows breathing
frequency to vary relative to stride frequency. Man's constant cost of transport
may enable human hunters to pursue the prey animal at speeds that force it to run
inefficiently, thereby expediting its eventual fatigue. Given what is known of heat
dissipation in Old World Anthropoidea, the bipedality of early hominids, and human
exercise physiology, one factor important in the origin of the Hominidae may have
been the occupation of a new niche as a diurnal endurance predator.

See also

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~skeleton/pdfs/2004e.pdf
D.M. Bramble and D.E. Lieberman, "Endurance running and the evolution of Homo",
Nature,) 432: 345-353, 2004 November 18th.

Louis Liebenberg, "Persistence Hunting by Modern Hunter-Gatherers", Current
Anthropology, 47:6.
(need to find a link for this one)

How odd. If ancient humans were savanna persistence hunters, why
didn't these savanna prey develop via natural selection, improved anti-
predation to this style of hunting sometime in the last 2 million
years? They obviously have been selected by lion predation for fast
sprinting, camoflage, water conservation. But apparently no selection
for endurance running? Why?

Lee keeps bringing up the high persistence hunting success ratio of
the Hadza, yet their diet is primarily non-carnivorous, ridiculously
low ratio compared to the Innuit or most coastal peoples. Seems to me
that endurance-persistence hunting has always been due to either
emergency situations or wounded/sickly/weak prey that would be easy to
harvest.

He says without a single bit of evidence...

And you still do not provide anything.



How odd. Since there are fast predators - like cheetahs, why didn't these
savanna prey develop via natural selection, improved anti-predation to this style of
hunting sometime in the last 2 million years?

http://www.predatorconservation.com/brown%20hyena.htm
...
hey have very keen senses, they are able to detect a carcass from considerable
distances, and are able to run at high speeds for long distances to get to the
carcass before other scavengers
...

http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=75
...
They can run top speed of 35 mph, and can attain a loping speed (6 mph) for great
distances without stopping.
...

http://www.hyaena.ge/spotted.htm
...
The spotted hyaena chases its prey over long distances, often several kilometres,
at speeds of up to 60km/h (Kruuk 1972a. Mills 1990). The maximum distance recorded
was 24km in pursuit of an eland in the Kalahari (Mills 1990).
...

(24 km - good one, eh? ;)

http://www.lioncrusher.com/animal.asp?animal=2
African Wild Dog
(Lycaon pictus)
...
They can run at speeds averaging 31 mph for very long distances.
...

http://www.awf.org/content/wildlife/detail/africanwilddog
...
They can run long distances at speeds up to 35 miles per hour.
...

Any of these have meter long head hair and sparse body hair and
abundant skin fat? Do savanna chimps or baboons?

Any of those flutter kick? Use tools? Have air sacs and dive?

air sacs = floating.

Some modern Hss run marathons, some modern Hss chase kudu, few eat raw

MANY hss run marathons. MANY.

Some today.

And hss used running in hunting more than
kudu

meat, many eat raw shellfish. Isn't that funny?

Your dodges usually are.

Put up or shut up: 1 meter long head hair in humans.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Savanna believers are stupid stupid stupid (Re: Ealine Morgan
    ... While horses, for example, have been shown to possess energetically optimal speeds ... may enable human hunters to pursue the prey animal at speeds that force it to run ... Louis Liebenberg, "Persistence Hunting by Modern Hunter-Gatherers", Current ... distances, and are able to run at high speeds for long distances to get to the ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Savanna believers are stupid stupid stupid (Re: Ealine Morgan
    ... While horses, for example, have been shown to possess energetically optimal speeds ... may enable human hunters to pursue the prey animal at speeds that force it to run ... been the occupation of a new niche as a diurnal endurance predator. ... distances, and are able to run at high speeds for long distances to get to the ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Savanna believers are stupid stupid stupid (Re: Ealine Morgan
    ... While horses, for example, have been shown to possess energetically optimal speeds ... may enable human hunters to pursue the prey animal at speeds that force it to run ... been the occupation of a new niche as a diurnal endurance predator. ... distances, and are able to run at high speeds for long distances to get to the ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Savanna believers are stupid stupid stupid (Re: Ealine Morgan
    ... While horses, for example, have been shown to possess energetically optimal speeds ... may enable human hunters to pursue the prey animal at speeds that force it to run ... been the occupation of a new niche as a diurnal endurance predator. ... distances, and are able to run at high speeds for long distances to get to the ...
    (sci.anthropology.paleo)
  • Re: Adding miles.
    ... Speed is not "adding path distances". ... this frame it will go the distance between two red paint marks 30 miles ... it at all for addition of linear speeds. ... The science of measurement is what you are losing ...
    (sci.physics)