Re: Hobbit News - Now they're deformed humans

Op 06-03-2008 00:11, Stephen Munro <smunro58@xxxxxxxxxxx> schreef:

Hawks: "... the basic point of the paper was that the wrist bones associated
with the LB-1 skeleton don't look like modern humans. They look like the wrist
bones of OH-7, which for these particular bones (trapezoid, scaphoid &
capitate) are similar to chimpanzees & other apes ..."
IOW, there's little doubt Hf regularly climbed trees, probably arms overhead.
I guess Hf was a descendant from the early H populations that colonised the
Ind.Ocean shores after the H/P split c.5 or 4 Ma. --Marc

Yes, arboreal probably, but curious thick leg bones and long feet, seemingly
unsuitable for climbing? Perhaps aquarboreal? Wading? Swimming? Diving? Palm
trees and frog kick (flared pelvis and long feet)? Associated faunal remains
include fish (no shell fish as far as I know). Below are some notes I took at
a seminar at the end of 2006 which included perhaps the first presentation of
the cretin idea. Stephen

Melbourne December 2006
Australasian Society for Human Biology, Annual Conference
Homo cretinsus?

The conference opened with a symposium on the significance of the Homo
floresiensis‚ fossil material. Following are some recollections of the
conference based on my notes [with my comments bracketed].

(thanks a lot, Stephen)

Mike Morwood introduced the session with a contextual overview of the Homo
floresiensis fossils in a seminar entitled The Hobbit's Tale. He pleaded
with fellow researches to stop searching for pathological arguments, and begin
instead to appreciate the enormous significance of this new hominid species.
The story of man is being revitalised on our doorstep, and Mike Morwood
reminded us that there could be potential undiscovered fossil sites in Borneo,
Sulawesi and other islands of South East Asia, and that we might make more
exciting and bewildering discoveries.

(yes, searching for pathol.arguments reminds of the neandertal Cossack)

Morwood outlined what he believes could have spelled the end for the hobbits,
and the pygmy Stegodon, which apparently became extinct at the same time on
the island, replaced by signs of modern human behaviour. [Invention of
sailing?]
Morwood described the hobbits as having ape like proportions, and talked about
them being an endemic part of the ancient island fauna. He suggests they might
have arrived about 850 ka, when stone tools begin to appear in fluviatile and
lacustrine deposits of the Soa Basin (850 and 600 ka).
Morwood suggested there are other deposits elsewhere on Flores with stone
artefacts and Stegodon, younger than 600 ka [not sure these are published?].
Liang Bua lies above a valley, with the river draining to the north. About
190 ka the cave was created by the river, and water rolled rocks were
deposited in the cave along with hominid artefacts.
The post cranial elements of floresiensis were described by Morwood as Homo
habilis-like, with longer arms than legs. It apparently had no chin or
forehead, again like Homo habilis. But in something of a surprise, it had very
long feet, unlike anything seen in any other hominid.
It also had a flared pelvis [Morwood also mentioned something about the
basicranium but my notes don't indicate what.]

(the flared pelvis is seen in apiths & He, presumably for swimming, not
impossible for (lateral??) wading)

The shoulder configuration of Homo floresiensis was also different to modern
humans, with the humeral tension more gibbon like [!] than Homo.

(suggests regular arm-hanging & even(??) swinging)

The femur and tibia are said to be short and thick and this was said to be a
Homo habilis trait [but I wasn't aware that Homo habilis had thick bones?].
The feet were said to be unlike any other hominid species known, especially in
terms of length[!].

(Hh had no thick bones AFAIK, Hf's thick leg bones suggests frequent wading)

Morwood believes they may have targeted very young Stegodon.
The fauna of Sulawesi about 2.5 Ma included:
- A pig
- A giant tortoise
- Stegodon (pygmy)
Sulawesi
- Babirusa
- Tarsier
- [but also macaques?]
The Dmanisi Homo georgicus fossils according to Morwood have modern body
proportions [based on long bones, modern = Homo erectus/ergaster presumably?]

(yes, He- rather than Hs-like)

The invention of sailing by twelve thousand years ago could have enabled
modern human populations to colonise Flores about 12 ka. Strong currents would
have thwarted any previous deliberate attempts [which leads me to suppose that
Morwood supports the idea that the first crossing of Wallace's Line may have
been accidental, but from Borneo-Sulawesi rather than Java, and been part of a
strong current dispersal that swept strong swimming animals, and animals able
to survive on floating debris (pigs, rodents, elephants, humans, lizards) from
Sulawesi to Flores. [The idea that arrival from Java was impossible due to
strong currents is based on the assumption that currents have always been as
strong as they are now, always in the same direction and continuously for all
parts of the day and through all seasons and regardless of sea level rises,
tectonics, volcanism, storms, glaciations etc.
Morwood believes there are similar faunal turnovers in the Philippines as well
as Sulawesi, Flores and Timor.
He also believes the hominid colonisation of southeast Asia may have occurred
between 2 and 3 Ma.

(or even 4-3 Ma, cf.retroviral data)

Debbie Argue argued that floresiensis grouped with Australopithecus garhi in
the post-cranial analysis she conducted, and that it grouped with Homo habilis
in another analysis [but my notes aren't clear on this].

(yes, aquarboreal)

Charles Oxnard and Peter Obendorf argued that the Homo floresiensis fossils
could have been due to cretinism, which may in part have been due to
environmental factors (that is they lived in mountain forests away from the
coast and therefore didn't have good access to iodine.) At the start of his
presentation Charles discussed the similarities of the Liang Bua fossils to
apes and australopithecines. He then showed a number of characteristics that
floresiensis supposedly shared with modern human individuals suffering from
cretinism.

(pathology unlikely IMO)

[My notes have, A creature that lived in trees?‚ but I'm not sure if I've
written that in response to Charles‚ observation that they look like apes and
Australopiths, or whether Charles said it.]
During a panel discussion, Mike Morwood, when asked what he thought of Charles
and Peter's cretinism ideas, pointed out that every individual found at the
site so far (thirteen in all) shows similar characteristics, and that
therefore to believe the cretin idea (or the Microcephalic idea) would be to
believe that every member of the population suffered from this condition, in
which case how did they survive there for at least the best part of a 100
thousand years.

(exactly)

[In my opinion pathological explanations require too much special pleading,
and since the fossils share a number of aspects with other fossil hominid
species, why shouldn't we accept them as a normal, rather than an abnormal
population. And since some of the fossils they resemble most lived in Africa
more than 2 million years ago, is it possible that these hominids might
represent a lineage that has in some respect not changed much since hominids
first dispersed, presumably around coastal forest and up rivers around the
Plio-Pleistocene boundary.]

(agreed)

- ape/apith-like wrists = hanging?
- very long feet = swimming?
- heavy leg bones = wading?
IOW, very likely aquarboreal.

http://allserv.rug.ac.be/~mvaneech/outthere.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT


______



Op 06-03-2008 02:35, in artikel 47CF4A50.34B43F6A@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Rich
Travsky <traRvEsky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7276943.stm
...
An Australian team claims the little people were not a new human species, but
modern humans with a form of dwarfism caused by poor nutrition.
...
The latest theory, published in the scientific journal Proceedings of the
Royal
Society B, claims the Hobbits were true humans, but did not grow to normal
size
because of environmental factors.

Dr Peter Obendorf from the School of Applied Science at RMIT University,
Melbourne,
and colleagues, believe the little people developed a dwarfism condition
because
of severe nutritional deficiencies.

Severe iodine deficiency in pregnancy can cause people to grow little more
than a
metre tall with bone characteristics very similar to those of the Flores
hobbits,
said Dr Obendorf.

He added: "Our research suggests that these fossils are not a new species but
rather
the remains of human hunter-gatherers that suffered from this condition."

They came to this conclusion after studying images of skulls of the Flores
fossils.
Anatomical features were compared with museum specimens of humans suffering
from a
condition known as congenital hypothyroidism. The Australian group did not
examine
the original fossils.

The hypothesis has been described as "sheer speculation" by some experts,
including
Professor Peter Brown of the University of New England in Armidale,
Australia, one
of the original members of the team that discovered the remains.

"The conclusions in this paper are not supported by the facts," he said. "The
authors have not examined the original fossil, have little and no experience
with
fossil hominids and depend upon data obtained by others."

Dr Jeremy Austin, deputy director of the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA at
Adelaide University, said genetic data might provide the "casting vote" in
the
debate.

It would clarify the evolutionary relationship between the Hobbit (Homo
floresiensis)
and modern humans, he said.

Genetic data has not been forthcoming so far, he admitted, mainly due to poor
preservation of the Liang Bua material and extensive contamination by modern
human
DNA
of material recovered from the site.
...

.

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