Re: Questions about human aquatic past

caldervangogh@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
On Jun 27, 1:38 am, VtSkier <vtsk...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Algis Kuliukas wrote:
On Jun 26, 8:04 am, VtSkier <vtsk...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
So I posted, in reply to another thread,
what I understand about the possible semi-
aquatic past period in human development.
I got zero, zip, nada, in response. Are you
guys going to continue to fight with each
other or would you like to try to educate me?
Sorry. You deserved a better response. If I'd have seen the posting
I'd have responded anyway. Better late than never...
snip Algis post for space reasons...>

Algis Kuliukas
Thank you for your reasonable reply. I have
previously thanked and responded to Pat Crowley
and Robert McFarland for their responses also.
In my reply to Pat Crowley I noted that my
personal interest was in discussing and learning
about what happened to (mainly) modern humans
AFTER they became what we are now and BEFORE
we started down the road to civilization.

Vermont Skier... I am interested in these subjects, too. And, you
will find much info about your subject(s) here... if you can suss it
out. So, not sure if you have already left for the wilds of
Vermont....

We have been physically the same creature since about 200 kya (200,000
years before present). This is only logical, because we are
genetically the same all over the world and came from the same stock
of people somewhere in East Africa at about that time. We also
experienced a population "bottleneck" about 70 kya, which may be the
result of the Toba volcano explosion about 74 kya. Sometime after 70
kya, we expanded again into the entire Old World. That group of
people that entered Europe is also called "Cro-Magnon" man, and they
may or may not have killed off the Neanderthals. The last known
Neanderthal fossil was from 29 kya. So, we have been the only "human"
species on the planet for about 30,000 years. (Well, except for
Flores men and women... the so called hobbits.. they seem to have been
a very isolated group and may have descended from homo erectus.... all
cool stuff to read about.)

All of the above is hotly debated and subject to change as new fossils
are discovered. It is kinda' an outline, and I think you picked up
most of the same info in the "Journey of Mankind" video, that I
love.

So, we have our physical beginnings 200 kya. I "believe" that our
features, and the early inklings of our culture, were present at that
time. I have argued (unsuccessfully, but with a proposal for proof)
that we were already tending plants at that time, and that we had what
I call a "relationship" with the soil. This is sort of a b.s. term,
but I can't think of another way to explain it. At any rate, this
propensity in our early ancestors allowed an easy transition into
domestication and agriculture in the 10 kya range... which... in my
opinion... was just an increase in population, and not an abrupt
change in habits.

We did undergo a rapid change in culture in the 50 kya range. It is
at this time that we start to find art and many of the features that
we ascribe to ourselves exclusively. (It is not known the degree to
which Neanderthals, homo erectus, flores, etc. possessed language and
cognitive skills on a par with ours. Neanderthals did apparently have
some music abilities.)

Writing developed between 10,000 and 7,000 BC (about 9kya) from
counting systems in use to keep track of agricultural products. (Cf.
Denise Bernard-Schmidt). Writing did NOT require any physical
evolution. It just co-opted existing language systems and a bit of
the motor nuerons that were already in place. It is a learned
activity.

I would argue that any learned behaviour is not a "physical evolution"
part of our existence. Now, this does bring up a lot of questions.
For example, humans today "learn" to walk! I argued this point in a
thread here on sap called "cultural bipedalism."

Concerning the AAT. Some of the "best" reading here on sap was in the
days when Jason and Algis were debating various points. It was very
frustrating for both men, but as a spectator... wow... good. IMHO, we
don't have enough evidence (ie, fossils) to support the AAT. But we
do have a lot of circumstanstial evidence that is interesting. for
example, we do like to "vacation" at the beach, and rarely on the
"savanna" (not the straw man version). We can swim (as do all
mammals), but, we also can give birth in water & it may be one of the
better methods for birthing. ("Squatting" being the other best bet.)
I also know that children are totally attracted to & love water.

Current thinking is not a "savanna" by the way. It is a "mosaic."

regards
calder (aka charles a long time ago) (not the charles that wrote that
weird book)

ps. here is a little blurb for the AAt folks, an article in the
popular press here in the USA from one of our MENSA folks:
http://www.parade.com/askmarilyn/archive/Sundays-Column-06-28-09.html



In other words, I am looking for Anthropological
studies rather than Zoological studies. I think
the discussion of what was the 'first cause' of
the physical adaptations which we now carry fall
into the latter and that discussions of culture,
and other responses to the world about us falls
into the former. I also asked if this was the
place for such discussions. Robert kindly gave
me the names of a couple of listserves which
might suit my purposes better than here, but I
prefer the easiness and informality of newsgroups
as long as the noise to signal ratio isn't too
high.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You bring up some good stuff. Some that I've read
(Oppenheimer's Journey) and some that I haven't.
I'm saving your post and reply at length soon.
.

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