Re: History of Europeans
From: Jona (adsl294196_at_tiscali.nl)
Date: 08/16/04
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 17:03:01 +0200
jay wrote:
>
> http://www.white-history.com/index.htm
At soc.history.ancient, we recently had a discussion about this website.
As the reader of this message may already have noticed, it is a white
suprematist site, and I decided to write a reply. In my opinion,
non-racists should discuss with racists and show that their position is
untenable. I picked out one chapter about which I know something and
suppose I was able to show that the author if this website has not
checked his facts carefully.
After this, there was a brief debate, in which a man or woman named
"intelligentsia" said that I should not look for stupid facts but large
ideas, and I said that large ideas should be based on facts. End of the
discussion.
Here is the text of my first message, which I think is still useful.
Jona
-------------------------------------------------------
intelligentsia wrote:
>
> Racism can mean hate expressed in harmful ways, or it can mean a scientific
> study of the races. The former is often illegal while the latter is
> perfectly legal. I consider the website above to be a truthful and
> scientific collection of facts.
Okay, granted, for argument's sake: racism can be a scientific way to
explain something. In my country, it is a bit out of fashion, but okay.
I am not a "real" academic (I have no appointment at an university), but
I think I am a specialist in one of the fields treated on the website,
Alexander the Great. (My book is set to appear in October, see
http://www.pothos.org/alexander.asp?paraID=68 .) I have read the
Alexander chapter from your "truthful and scientific collection of
facts": http://www.white-history.com/hwr11.htm.
In general, I admit that I expected something far worse (believe me,
there's a lot of crap on Alexander). Yet, I can not agree that it is
truthful or scientific. Below, I have summed up the errors. If this is
the quality of the remainder of the site, please ignore it, because it
is simply not a "truthful and scientific collection of facts".
Jona
FACTUAL ERRORS
"After firmly establishing Macedonian unity, Philip set about invading
the Greek peninsula, occupying Athens in 338 BC."
}} Wrong. He defeated the Athenians in 338 and concluded a treaty.
}} The Macedonians occupied the city after the reign of Akexander.
"He then turned his attention to the Persian empire to the East."
}} Wrong. The first blows of the war with Persia date back to 340,
}} before Philip brought Greece under control.
"Philip was given a royal burial, his tomb being discovered intact and
in pristine condition in 1977 AD."
}} Outdated information. The decoration of the tomb includes a lion
hunt,
}} a theme that is picked up in western art after the conquests of
}} Alexander.
"In doing this he managed to unite most of the Greeks"
}} Wrong. Most Greek cities hated their overlord. There was considerable
}} support for his Spartan enemy Agis; in the year of Alexander's death,
}} war was being prepared.
"crossing the Dardanelles with an army of 35,000 Macedonian and Greek
troops"
}} Correct, but ignoring 10,000 Macedonians under Parmenio already in
Asia.
"His chief officers [...] were Antigonus, Ptolemy, and Seleucus"
}} Wrong. At the beginning of the war, Alexander's chief officers were
}} Parmenio, Philotas and others. They were replaced by a second
generation
}} of officers, which included Craterus and Perdiccas. The three men
}} mentioned were to rise to fame after Alexander's death.
"the victory was overwhelming, and as news of the decisive victory
spread throughout Turkey, all of the sub-continent submitted to
Alexander without putting up a fight."
}} Nonsense. Alexander had to fight at Miletus and Halicarnassus.
}} The siege of the latter town was almost a defeat: he took part of the
}} city but could not storm the citadel, which held out for almost two
}} more years. Alexander lost the strategic initiative.
"Still only having around 35,000 soldiers,"
}} Wrong. Alexander's army at Issus had been reinforced several times.
}} Modern scholars (Donald Engels and others) think there were about
}} 41,000 infantry and 6,000 cavalry.
"probably due to his genius as a military leader, Alexander won the day
at the Battle of Issus, in 333 BC - which saw the utter rout of the
Persian forces."
}} Wrong. Actually, there not so much about genius. Alexander fought
}} bravely, but the real mistake had been made by Darius, who fought
}} on the wrong site. Nor were the Persian forces utterly routed; they
}} could still advance to Anatolia, Cyprus and Egypt.
"in quick succession occupied Egypt, the disorganized and enfeebled
non-White chieftains there offering little real resistance."
}} Wrong. According to the standards of the website under discussion,
}} the garrison was commanded by Aryans, i.e. Persians, i.e., whites.
"Cyrene, the capital of the ancient North African kingdom of Cyrenaica"
}} Wrong. It was an independent Greek city.
"the city of Carthage, where his Indo-European Nordic troops set up a
ruling aristocracy"
}} Wrong. There's simply no evidence for this whatsoever.
"It was while on this return journey that Alexander contracted fever and
died in Babylon."
}} Wrong. He contracted fever at Babylon.
"dying at the age of 33"
}} Wrong. A man born in July 356 and dying in June 323 is 32. This is an
}} elementary mistake. How can you prove white supremacy if you can not
}} even count beyond thirty-two?
"Alexander himself publicly declared himself to be in favor of further
racial integration."
}} Wrong. There is simply no evidence for this statement.
"He ordered for example that all his generals to take wives from the
conquered peoples, most of whom were racial mixtures of Semites,
Arabics, Negroids and original Whites."
}} Wrong. The marriages at Susa included Macedonian men and Persian
}} ladies, both, in terms of the website under discussion, great white
}} nations. It had nothing to with a policy of racial fusion; Alexander
}} needed the subject people to govern his empire, which was too large
}} to be ruled by Macedonians alone. Intermarriage was a simple way to
}} appease the subjects. For the same reason, he had taken Roxane as his
}} wife.
[skipping some remarks on the Susa marriages, which, I think I have
refuted by now]
"there was no obvious successor to Alexander (as his one son was very
young and the other was retarded - both were murdered in 305 BC"
}} Three or four errors in half a sentence. Officially, there were two
}} successors: his mentally unstable brother Arrhidaeus and his still
}} unborn son Alexander IV. Arrhidaeus did in fact rule and was killed
}} in 316; Alexander IV was killed before 310.
"Alexander's General Ptolemy"
}} Wrong. He was a somatophylax or body guard / adjutant.
"Most of these lands were however lost to military attacks by the
Seleucidians [...] around the year 220 BC."
}} Wrong. Should be 200. The expression is Seleucids. This line is
}} illustrative for the carelessness of the author of this webpage.
"a White ruling class over the large mass of mixed race inhabitants"
}} Wrong. The book to read is Koen Goudriaan's *Ethnicity in Ptolemaic
}} Egypt*, which clearly shows how fluid ethnic boundaries were.
"fairly soon their [the Seleucid] empire also began to crumble under the
pressure of trying to contain large numbers of widely diverse racial and
ethnic groupings within the borders of one state."
}} So passé. Read a book like S. Sherwin-White, *From Samarkhand to
Sardes*,
}} which is really excellent.
"In the northern parts of the Seleucidian empire, for example,
descendants of Macedonian soldiers"
}} Wrong. This refers to Sogdia, where Greeks had been settled.
"to form the relatively short lived states of Bactria and Parthia."
}} Short-lived?! The Indo-Greek states had a longer history than, for
}} example, the USA.
"Some of these Indo-Europeans were in fact marauding Celts"
}} Wrong. There never were representatives of the west-European Iron age
}} cultures in Sogdia.
"The greatest contribution of the Alexandrian age was however the
transference of a large amount of classical knowledge to the new power
in Europe - Rome."
}} Incomplete. One should ask that the Greeks/Macedonians accepted much
}} knowledge from other people, e.g., astronomy from Babylonians and
}} medicine from Egypt.
-- Jona Lendering http://www.livius.org
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