Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)

From: John Atkinson (johnacko_at_bigpond.com)
Date: 03/14/05

  • Next message: John Atkinson: "Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)" 
    Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 02:20:05 GMT

    "benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
    > >
    > > John Atkinson wrote:
    > >
    > > > And I brought up the case of Tupinamba and its slightly creolised
    > > > descendent, Lingua Geral, which was the main language of all races in
    > > > sixteenth century colonial Brazil, which was legally proscribed by
    King John
    > > > in 1727, and which then proceeded to die out (except for a few
    thousand
    > > > people on the Upper Rio Negro, who still speak it).
    > > > So, I said, here is a case where the native language was forcibly
    forbidden,
    > > > and was replaced. But then I remarked, "Did it die because of the
    > > > proscription, or because its white speakers were swamped by the big
    new wave
    > > > of immigrants from Europe during the eighteenth century? I don't
    know."
    > >
    > > In fact, I think the main factor was the influx of europeans in the late
    > > 17th century, in the great gold and gems rush.
    > > The Lingua Geral probably only got so far as it did for a while because
    > > Brazil was largely unkempt as a colony in the first centuries, all the
    > > interests lying in the East Indies. Knowing the portuguese as I do, I
    > > strongly disbelieve they would massively learn such an alien language if
    > > they made a sizable portion of the population. OTOH, the Lingua Geral
    was
    > > probably a nice means to communicate with all the local populations in
    > > Brazil, since nearly all spoke a Tupi language. But with the later
    > > demographic turn, its prospects were never very good. Point being that
    it
    > > persecution alone wouldn't make it dwindle.
    > >
    > > It's John V, by the way, probably the least remebered of the 6.
    > > --
    > This sounds similar to the history of Chinook Jargon, which was spoken
    > by thousands of people from Oregon to Alaska in the mid 19th century,
    > but faded away with massive white settlement and the end of the
    > frontier.
    >
    > The story about the king forbidding Lingua Geral makes me think of the
    > frequently repeated myth that Chinook Jargon was invented by the
    > Hudson's Bay Company to facilitate their fur-trading operations.
    > Folklore about language seems to attribute unrealistic language
    > engineering powers to individuals and corporate groups.

    Yeah, well, the king certainly issued such a decree -- that's not a myth.
    Whether anyone in Brazil actually took any notice of it is certainly
    arguable. With most government directives from the home country around that
    time, the more influential locals seem to have picked out the parts they
    could use to increase their personal power and profit and ignored the rest.

    Just like nineteenth century Australia, actually, only more so -- and like
    in Australia, the indigenes were the losers.

    John.

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