Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)

From: Peter T. Daniels (grammatim_at_worldnet.att.net)
Date: 03/18/05 

Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:51:41 GMT

phippsmartin@hotmail.com wrote:

> Comm, I think what Neeraj means is that creoles are formed when pidgins
> develop their own gramatical rules. The problem is that, since people
> here are associating languages based on the development of grammar,
> they would place the resultant language in group A if it developed a
> grammar based on a language from group A and they would place the
> language in group B if it developed grammar from a language in group B.
> Since it is highly unlikely that people who have their own language(s)
> are going to create an entirely new grammar for a pidgin without it
> being based on the grammar of the language(s) they already speak, then
> perhaps you agreed too quickly to accept the definition of "creole"
> given. Or perhpas "creole" isn't the right word. Maybe we need to
> create a new term to describe what we are talking about. We could call
> a language a "blend" whenever it contains grammar from one language and
> vocabulary from another.

No, creoles do _not_ reflect the grammar of one of their source
languages. It used to be thought that the similarity among all creoles
resulted from their all developing from a Portuguese substratum and a
local superstratum -- until many, many creoles were discovered in parts
of the world that had never been visited by Portuguese advernturers,
traders, whatever.

Some version of Bickerton's hypothesis that absence of "whole"
linguistic input causes the "underlying" linguistic capacity of an
infant to shape its emergent language must be closest to the facts.

See John Holm's Introduction to Pidgins and Creoles in the Cambridge
Textbooks series, or his Pidgins and Creoles in the Cambridge Language
Families series.

Or just about any version of Derek Bickerton's book -- he puts it out
with a new title every couple of years or so. 

-- 
Peter T. Daniels                       grammatim@att.net

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
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  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
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  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
    ... >> language in everyday use that heh, ... > distinction between pidgin and creole must be based on grammar. ... "I'd gone out to the store" is proper English to say what I did ... They can learn to say words, but not communicate. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
    ... >> between pidgin and creole must be based on grammar. ... > grammar based on a language from group A and they would place the ... > being based on the grammar of the languagethey already speak, ... > how the different varieties of English come about: ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
    ... >> language in everyday use that heh, ... > distinction between pidgin and creole must be based on grammar. ... "I'd gone out to the store" is proper English to say what I did ... They can learn to say words, but not communicate. ...
    (sci.archaeology)