Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)

From: John Atkinson (johnacko_at_bigpond.com)
Date: 03/22/05 

Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 04:51:36 GMT

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:423F339B.1D9B@worldnet.att.net...
> John Atkinson wrote:
> >
> > "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@worldnet.att.net> wrote :
> > >
> > > No, creoles do _not_ reflect the grammar of one of their source
> > > languages. It used to be thought that the similarity among all
creoles
> > > resulted from their all developing from a Portuguese substratum
and a
> > > local superstratum -- until many, many creoles were discovered in
parts
> > > of the world that had never been visited by Portuguese
advernturers,
> > > traders, whatever.
> >
> > OK, I know only one creole well enough to comment on -- Tok
Pisin.[...]
> >
> > > Some version of Bickerton's hypothesis that absence of "whole"
> > > linguistic input causes the "underlying" linguistic capacity of an
> > > infant to shape its emergent language must be closest to the
facts.
> >
> > I believe it has some influence, but doubt that it is the *major*
causative
> > factor in producing (most?) creole grammars. (As I said though, I
don't
> > really know what I'm talking about when it comes to the Atlantic
creoles.)
> >
> > I'd be interested to hear whether Guy and Ross agree with what I say
> > above -- they're the local experts on Melanesian creoles and
Austronesian of
> > course.
>
> The point is to get _out_ of the 'Nesias and look at the Arabic-based
> creoles inside Africa, for instance; check on Ki-Nubi. Holm's Green
> book(s) is the fullest resource (the Red is a summary with additions).

OK. The substrate for Nubi and its close relation Juba Arabic would be
one or more languages of southern Sudan, viz, Nilo-Saharan, likely Dinka
or Nuer I'd guess, or perhaps more likely Fur (Owens "demonstrates that
many of [JA's] phonological features come from ... Western Sudan"). I
know buggerall about any of these. OTOH, Nubi speakers formed the
backbone of the Kings African Rifles in Uganda, and Swahili was the
language used by the Brits with their black troops, so Swahili would
have been an adstrate -- the prefix ki in Ki-Nubi is of course Swahili.

>From the scrap of information in Holm's green book (vol 2, p 574), the
kind of compounds in Nubi ("belly of hand" for palm, etc) certainly
sound very like those typical of Swahili (where palm = kitanga cha
mkono), or other Bantu languages. The word order and constructions in
the four lines of text quoted are very similar to those of pidginised
Swahili (Swahili sans prefixes).

FWIW, Nubi, like Dinka, Nuer, Swahili, and Arabic are VO, while Fur is
strongly SOV. Which may suggest that Nubi does *not* get most of its
syntax from a Fur substrate.

Course, these remarks, being based on minimal data, don't mean a thing.
I need a Fur grammar!

John.

> --
> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
    ... The substrate for Nubi and its close relation Juba Arabic would be ... language used by the Brits with their black troops, so Swahili would ... FWIW, Nubi, like Dinka, Nuer, Swahili, and Arabic are VO, while Fur is ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
    ... The substrate for Nubi and its close relation Juba Arabic would be ... > language used by the Brits with their black troops, so Swahili would ... > mkono), or other Bantu languages. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Related languages (Re: A China-Sumer connection)
    ... The substrate for Nubi and its close relation Juba Arabic would be ... > language used by the Brits with their black troops, so Swahili would ... > mkono), or other Bantu languages. ...
    (sci.anthropology)