Re: Immigration issues (Re: Evolutionary ethics)


"Sylvia Knörr" <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dnijm8$mhk$02$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, BLT, DOA" <someonelse@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> schrieb
> im Newsbeitrag news:v5Nkf.596787$x96.86645@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> "Sylvia Knörr" <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:dm32b8$2ki$00$2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


>> While it is easier to lead (or force) small societies, it is very
> difficult
>> to control (either by force or good leadership) a highly literate
>> society.
>
> You mean - because illiterates are GENERALLY easier to control?

I"m not going to go that far, but it seems to be so. This would be
especially true if the population were in a society that depends upon
hierarchic social structures. This is just an interesting little correlation
I stumbled upon some years ago. If you took a chart showing distribution of
literacy/illiteracy (globally speaking) and placed it in context of tyrannic
to democratic states, you will find a high degree of correlation between
illiteracy-tyranny and literacy-democracy. The higher the literacy rate, the
more likely the country will be a democracy (of some sort or another). As to
WHY this is so, I've not more than a glimmering hint of an hypothesis.

>
>> It should be noted, however, that most of these small states are
> democracies
>> of some form or another rather than outright tyrannies. Additionally,
>> they
>> all have rather high per capita incomes and a substantial middle class.
> Hong
>> Kong being the exception to all of that. There's always some fly in the
>> ointment when we begin talking about socio-political issues.
>
> Hehe. Yes, most of these states are wealthy, and often this is by their
> position on the financial market - I consider them as cities with some
> hens
> which are laying golden eggs.

Indeed so. It's interesting how sometimes being a wealthy state is
protection against invasion (peaceful or otherwise) while sometimes being a
wealthy state is a guarantee of invasion?

>
>> > Exactly. Maybe the North African immigrants' reluctance to assimilate
> and
>> > the misplanned housing projects of the French government are two
> DISTINCT
>> > problems. But together they are fatal.
>
>> Now that you've put it that clearly, it seems you may have an excellent
>> observation. Perhaps Machiavelli was correct -- disperse the conquered
>> people throughout your domain, do not allow them to aggregate, force them
> to
>> accept your language and culture, and dissidence will subside to
> manageable
>> levels. Putting a whole lot of "others" into one pot together, deprive
> them
>> of opportunity, and they become a maddening crowd.
>
> I wonder - was Machiavelli so much ahead of his time, or is it that
> nothing
> much has changed about the ruling patterns of societies?

Not that much has changed about human nature in the past eight to ten
thousand years, and so the principles he espoused would probably hold just
as true/practical today.

>
>> > That's something to be learned by other nations which have to deal with
>> > large numbers of immigrants. Alas, some nationalistic animosities stand
> in
>> > the way of learning from each other. Most sovereign states prefer to
>> > invent the wheel anew on their own. :-))
>> > And then, it might make a difference WHERE the immigrants are coming
> from.
>> > Asian immigrants seem to cause less troubles and adapt lightly
> EVERYWHERE
>> > they immigrate.
>
>> Well, Sylvia, I would not go quite that far that quickly. Thousands of
>> Chinese immigrated to the US in the mid-1800s but did not assimilate into
>> the society for almost a hundred years. They gathered into tight little
>> communities in a handful of cities and stayed within themselves
>> throughout
>> that whole time. They did not adapt or assimilate easily or readily,
> partly
>> by choice partly by exclusion. However, given their Confucian culture,
>> one
>> should not be surprised that they were not anywhere near so violent as
> later
>> groups of immigrants.
>
> I probably didn't think of these early Chinese immigrants because they
> never
> appeared as trouble-makers. Maybe it's their Confucian culture, but if I'm
> not mistaken, the same happened with other Asian immigrants. Filipinos,
> Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese etc. Although some of them gather in bigger
> amounts, they don't pose a problem or a threat, although most of them are
> NOT Confucians.

That refers us to another conversation that is currently flagging for want
of a clue (on my part). Asian cultures in general tend to promote "group"
thinking, high degree of cooperation, and maintenance of status. Why that is
remains a puzzle.

>
>> > I think it makes a difference whether someone immigrates to the USA to
>> > escape torture and suppression in his home country. Those immigrants
> will
>> > probably be grateful to live in a land where they are free from
>> > persecution,
>> > and they will gratefully take the opportunity which a tolerant
> democratic
>> > country like the USA provides.
>> > Those who immigrate only for economic reasons rather have a "bazaar
>> > mentality" - they take whatever they can get without an obligation to
> show
>> > any gratefulness.
>
>> That seems to be the case. It is, howver, making a mess of things here,
> and
>> I fear that some of my countrymen may decide that failure to assimilate
>> should lead to expulsion. I fear that because the constant high level of
>> immigration has kept our democracy from stultifying into dictatorship or
>> decaying into chaos (as has happened to democracies since time
>> immemorial;
>> and as Plato pointed out they would). If we cut off the influx of
> motivated
>> immigrants, we may grow our own doom as a unique society and culture.
>
> An interesting thought - I admit that I never considered the ADVANTAGES of
> high levels of immigration in other but economical terms. Thanks for
> leading
> me to this more socio-political aspect of it!

Most countries, historically and globally, have tended to resist invasion
(peaceful or otherwise), and so we have only that data from which to draw
conclusions about what high levels of immigration can mean or can do for a
local or national population. The singular problem with high levels of
immigration (despite what Nietzsche thought) is that it tends to wash out
the historical culture of the "gaining" population... indeed may even
supercede that historical culture. It would seem, then, that for a culture
to maintain its culture, heritage, and traditions, while gaining the level
of cultural and intellectual vigor inherent to immigration (keeping the
culture "young" so to speak), there might be some optimum level of rate of
immigration with rate of acculturization (getting just enough new people
into the culture and getting them to work into the established culture).
Hmmmm. interesting thought there. Thanks, Sylvia!



>> I am reminded of a sign seen in Manila harbor as the last American troops
>> were pulling out. As the boat left the dock, there were throngs of
>> Phillippinos demonstrating against America. Among the many signs was one
>> that a young man was holding, "Yankee go home! and take me with you!"
>
> LOL, this is so specifically Filipino! Their ambivalence between
> admiration
> and aversion towards Americans is probably even bigger than the German
> ambivalence.
> BTW - have you been in the Philippines back then? Tell me ALL about it!
> The
> Filipinos are my favorite ethnicity, I *LOVE* them!! :-)

Hmmmm. Be careful whom and how you label them "Filipino."

Book Reference: Amy Chua, "World on Fire". Let me see if I can find the
Amazon.de form.

Sorry, but it's not been translated into German yet, but you're English is
so excellent that it won't make any difference. I highly recommend this
book.

Froehliche Weinachten!

Micheal.




.

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