Re: Immigration issues (Re: Evolutionary ethics)


"Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, BLT, DOA" <someonelse@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> schrieb
im Newsbeitrag news:3Qdpf.628913$x96.323227@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Sylvia Knörr" <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:dnijm8$mhk$02$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > "Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, BLT, DOA" <someonelse@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > schrieb
> > im Newsbeitrag news:v5Nkf.596787$x96.86645@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> "Sylvia Knörr" <Sylvia.Knoerr_NoSpam_@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >> news:dm32b8$2ki$00$2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> >> While it is easier to lead (or force) small societies, it is very
difficult
> >> to control (either by force or good leadership) a highly literate
> >> society.

> > You mean - because illiterates are GENERALLY easier to control?

> I"m not going to go that far, but it seems to be so. This would be
> especially true if the population were in a society that depends upon
> hierarchic social structures. This is just an interesting little
correlation
> I stumbled upon some years ago. If you took a chart showing distribution
of
> literacy/illiteracy (globally speaking) and placed it in context of
tyrannic
> to democratic states, you will find a high degree of correlation between
> illiteracy-tyranny and literacy-democracy. The higher the literacy rate,
the
> more likely the country will be a democracy (of some sort or another). As
to
> WHY this is so, I've not more than a glimmering hint of an hypothesis.

I use to think that it's for the simple reason that illiterates don't have
access to informations about alternative ways to live (and many other
informations).
Isn't it the general rule that the most educated rule over the uneducated
masses? Information and know-how is virtual energy and a source of POWER.

> >> It should be noted, however, that most of these small states are
democracies
> >> of some form or another rather than outright tyrannies. Additionally,
they
> >> all have rather high per capita incomes and a substantial middle class.
> >> Hong Kong being the exception to all of that. There's always some fly
in the
> >> ointment when we begin talking about socio-political issues.

> > Hehe. Yes, most of these states are wealthy, and often this is by their
> > position on the financial market - I consider them as cities with some
> > hens which are laying golden eggs.

> Indeed so. It's interesting how sometimes being a wealthy state is
> protection against invasion (peaceful or otherwise) while sometimes being
a
> wealthy state is a guarantee of invasion?

Which small and wealthy state has been victim of an invasion in recent
times?

> >> > That's something to be learned by other nations which have to deal
with
> >> > large numbers of immigrants. Alas, some nationalistic animosities
stand
> >> > in the way of learning from each other. Most sovereign states prefer
to
> >> > invent the wheel anew on their own. :-))
> >> > And then, it might make a difference WHERE the immigrants are coming
> >> > from.
> >> > Asian immigrants seem to cause less troubles and adapt lightly
> >> > EVERYWHERE they immigrate.

> >> Well, Sylvia, I would not go quite that far that quickly. Thousands of
> >> Chinese immigrated to the US in the mid-1800s but did not assimilate
into
> >> the society for almost a hundred years. They gathered into tight little
> >> communities in a handful of cities and stayed within themselves
> >> throughout
> >> that whole time. They did not adapt or assimilate easily or readily,
partly
> >> by choice partly by exclusion. However, given their Confucian culture,
one
> >> should not be surprised that they were not anywhere near so violent as
> >> later groups of immigrants.

> > I probably didn't think of these early Chinese immigrants because they
never
> > appeared as trouble-makers. Maybe it's their Confucian culture, but if
I'm
> > not mistaken, the same happened with other Asian immigrants. Filipinos,
> > Vietnamese, Koreans, Japanese etc. Although some of them gather in
bigger
> > amounts, they don't pose a problem or a threat, although most of them
are
> > NOT Confucians.

> That refers us to another conversation that is currently flagging for want
> of a clue (on my part). Asian cultures in general tend to promote "group"
> thinking, high degree of cooperation, and maintenance of status. Why that
is
> remains a puzzle.

Part of my hypothesis about this is, that there are underlying matriarchal
structures still alive in some Asian societies. As we all know, matriarchy
is not an inversion of patriarchy, but a quite different social system,
where the FAMILY is the center of every social movement, and the welfare of
the family is a much higher value than the welfare of an individual.
Everyone knows that in corporations with a high percentage of females, you
have more cooperation than in male-based corporations, which are more
dominated by competition.
I could even find a BIOLOGIC parallel as evidence for my hypothesis: Asian
men appear a bit more 'effeminate' physically - in average they are a tad
smaller, have flatter noses, less body hair and (if I got that right) lower
testosterone levels than average European or African males. This could be a
positive case of sexual selection.

> >> > I think it makes a difference whether someone immigrates to the USA
to
> >> > escape torture and suppression in his home country. Those immigrants
> >> > will probably be grateful to live in a land where they are free from
> >> > persecution, and they will gratefully take the opportunity which a
tolerant

> >> > democratic country like the USA provides.
> >> > Those who immigrate only for economic reasons rather have a "bazaar
> >> > mentality" - they take whatever they can get without an obligation to
> >> > show any gratefulness.

> >> That seems to be the case. It is, howver, making a mess of things
here,
> >> and I fear that some of my countrymen may decide that failure to
assimilate
> >> should lead to expulsion. I fear that because the constant high level
of
> >> immigration has kept our democracy from stultifying into dictatorship
or
> >> decaying into chaos (as has happened to democracies since time
> >> immemorial;
> >> and as Plato pointed out they would). If we cut off the influx of
motivated
> >> immigrants, we may grow our own doom as a unique society and culture.

> > An interesting thought - I admit that I never considered the ADVANTAGES
of
> > high levels of immigration in other but economical terms. Thanks for
> > leading me to this more socio-political aspect of it!

> Most countries, historically and globally, have tended to resist invasion
> (peaceful or otherwise), and so we have only that data from which to draw
> conclusions about what high levels of immigration can mean or can do for a
> local or national population.

Your assumption that most countries resisted invasion seems debatable to me.
Wouldn't you agree that Australia and both Americas have been successfully
invaded? (successful from the European viewpoint).

The singular problem with high levels of
> immigration (despite what Nietzsche thought) is that it tends to wash out
> the historical culture of the "gaining" population... indeed may even
> supercede that historical culture. It would seem, then, that for a culture
> to maintain its culture, heritage, and traditions, while gaining the level
> of cultural and intellectual vigor inherent to immigration (keeping the
> culture "young" so to speak), there might be some optimum level of rate of
> immigration with rate of acculturization (getting just enough new people
> into the culture and getting them to work into the established culture).
> Hmmmm. interesting thought there. Thanks, Sylvia!

If I visualize the process of immigration and acculturation, I see the
society as one huge organism. Any living organism has to have some INPUT
constantly to stay alive (proteines, oxygene, carbon hydrates, even minerals
etc). Within the organism, these 'foreign' substances have to be altered,
some of them alter the organism, some of them become part of the organism
forever. Whether any substance is wholesome or toxic for the organism is
just a matter of the dosage. There is a permanent flow of input and output -
when it comes to a halt, the organism dies.
You might call it naive to consider a society as some kind of
'super-organism', but on the other hand, there is some rule of
self-similarity on all levels the world.

> >> I am reminded of a sign seen in Manila harbor as the last American
troops
> >> were pulling out. As the boat left the dock, there were throngs of
> >> Phillippinos demonstrating against America. Among the many signs was
one
> >> that a young man was holding, "Yankee go home! and take me with you!"

> > LOL, this is so specifically Filipino! Their ambivalence between
admiration
> > and aversion towards Americans is probably even bigger than the German
> > ambivalence.
> > BTW - have you been in the Philippines back then? Tell me ALL about it!
> > The Filipinos are my favorite ethnicity, I *LOVE* them!! :-)

> Hmmmm. Be careful whom and how you label them "Filipino."

There may be some who go so far in adaption to the host country (mostly the
USA) that they deny their origin. But their extreme ability to adapt are one
more trait which make them fascinating.

> Book Reference: Amy Chua, "World on Fire". Let me see if I can find the
> Amazon.de form.

Thank you - I heard about that, it's already on my "books to read" list. :-)

> Sorry, but it's not been translated into German yet, but you're English is
> so excellent that it won't make any difference. I highly recommend this
> book.

Alas, it DOES make a difference for me to read in English or my native
tongue, but most interesting books ARE in English, so what can I do? Life is
for learning! :-D

> Froehliche Weinachten!

Thanks, I had a very good Christmas feast, and I hope the same for you.
Happy New Year!


.

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