Re: German population in Europe after fall of Roman Empire.

From: Inger E Johansson (inger_e.johansson_at_notelia.com)
Date: 06/16/04 

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 16:12:55 GMT

Inside this please find parts of a message I sent earlier today.
"Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@not.net.au> skrev i meddelandet
news:40D06EF2.E8556C6A@not.net.au...
>
>
> Philip Deitiker wrote:
> >
> > kohlfurz@linuxmail.org (Kohlfurz) says in
> > news:60f13560.0406151016.3e71325d@posting.google.com:
> >
> [..]
> > > Scandinavian origin of goths is based on myth. How did the
> > > Goths get there, since the I-E group came from Black sea.
> >
> > I-E does not equal genetics. It is a cultural expansion.
> > 60% of scandinavian haplotypes undoubtedly expanded from western
> > europe (i.e. Ireland, Cornwall, etc), 30% of the haplotypes
> > appear to come from peoples who lived proximal to scandinavia,
> > and very little evidence that scandinavian peoples originated
> > from the black sea. In fact I can find better evidence for black
> > sea origin in the Yupik eskimoes than I can find for evidence in
> > the Swedish population.
>
> What a load of uneducated clap-trap!!

The Goths followed the withdrawing Ice Coat northward walking over the then
dry 'North Sea's' area. Settlements from early Stone Age correspond to where
Ice halted and so on.
The part of Scandinavia we are talking about isGötaland/Gotaland (today's
name) where the major parts Västergötland/Wisigothia and
Östergötland/Ostrogothia been a part of as long as we know of the names and
for Wisigothia we know that Göta Älv/Gota Elf in the first century AD was
called Wigotha Elf.(at least one of the B-versions of Ptolomy in West and
some in the Arabic versions contain that information).
>
The continued settlement within areas certainly were without any changes
indicating migrations etc.

" De orter som har -um, -inge, -stad, -by i sig och de orter som har
"naturnamn", gudanamn eller produktionsnamn är i huvudsak samma som de orter
som överenstämmer med fyndbilden från stenåldern och fram till vikingatiden.

Det föreliggande materialet tycks bekräfta de nuvarande teorierna avseende
att natur/djur tillsammans med äldre mansnamn och äldre gudanamn namn-gett
orter eventuellt redan på bronsåldern. "(Johansson Inger E, Vattenvägarna in
mot Roxen i äldre tider C-essay, Chapter Summary and Conclusions, Linköpings
Universitet Tema Historia1993)

quick translation:
"The places with -um, -inge, -stad, -by in the name and the places which
have 'name from nature', God-names or production-names are the major part of
the places where the artifacts found from the Stone Age on forwards to the
Viking Age. The existing body of information seems to confirm the old
theories that nature/animals together with the oldest [known] male name and
the Elderly God's name have formed the base of the name for these places
possibly as early as during Bronze Age."

Example: (from Chapter 5.4)
S, B, Jä, Jy Ljunga(Skönberga)

S= Stone Age, B = Bronze Age; Jä= Pre Roman Iron Age, Jy = Iron Age

>From chapter 4.2 Stone Age:
"Exempel på fynd från denna perioden finns bland annat i Hammarkinds härad.
Här undersöktes under åren 1905 - 1912 27 högar i Ljunga, Skönberga socken.
Högarna gav fynd från flera olika tidsepoker. Bland stenåldersfynden var en
båtformig skafthålsyxa och 3 flintyxor som daterades till omkr. 2500 f Kr."

Example of artifacts from this period exists in Hammarkind's 'härad'.
Between 1905 to 1912 27(twenty seven) mounds were excavated in Ljunga,
Skönberga parish. The mounds 'gave' artifacts from several epochs. Among the
artifacts from the Stone Age a boat-formed handel-holed axe and 3 flint axes
dated to around 2500 BC.

>From Chapter 4.2 Bronze Age, under headline Östergötland:
"Det finns bronsföremål som är importerade från Weichselområdet och funna i
undersökningsområdet. Vid de omfattande utgrävningarna i Ljunga, Skönberga
sn hittades ett spänne av brons. (note 96) Vid utgrävningen fann man även
ett armband av brons(note 97) m.m."

Bronze Age artifacts imported from the Weichsel area(river Visla in today's
Poland) have been found in the examined area. During the extensive
excarvations in Ljunga, Skönberga parish one bronze buckle was found(note
96). Excavation also showed a bracelet of bronze(note 97) and so on"

>From Chapter 4.4 Iron Age under headline 'Östergötland under äldre
järnåldern' (Ostrogothia during older Iron Age, which here is the same as
Pre-Roman Iron Age.:
"27 st av Ljungas högar grävdes ut under åren 1905-1912. Fynden visar att
gravplatsen använts under 3000 år ända fram till omkring 900 e.Kr.(note122)"

27 of the mound in Ljunga was excavated between 1905 and 1912. The artifacts
show that the graveyard area was used in the course of 3000 years up to 900
AD. (note 122)"

>From Chapter 4.4 Iron Age under headline 'Yngre Järnåldern'(Iron Age)
underline 'Östergötland'(Ostrogothia):
" I tidigare nämnda Ljunga i Skönberga socken finns ett gravfält som använts
åtminstone från äldre bronsåldern och in i järn-åldern. Från yngre
järnåldern har utgrävningar(1905-12) gett fynd av bälteshake i järn,
mönstrade glaspärlor, sländtrissor, nycklar, svärd med skida, spjut, lans,
sköld m.m.(note150).

In the earlier mentioned Ljunga, Skönberga parish there is a graveyard used
at least from older Bronze Age on forward into the Iron Age. From the Iron
Age the excavations(1905-1912) showed findings such as belt-hook, patterned
glass pearls(flusspearls), distaff-tools, keys, swords within sheath, spear,
lance, schield and so on(note 150).

>From chapter 5.1. Placename older than the Medieval Age., under headline
Språkliga ledtrådar till det förgångna (Linguistic clues to past Ages) you
may find Ljunga as well as the parish name Skönberga:
"DJUR OCH NATURNAMN INOM UNDERSÖKNINGSOMRÅDET (ENBART ORTSNAMN) Animal and
nature names in the investigated area(only place names)
Blidstena, Bäckeby, Dalby, Djurglo, Fågelvik, Hallingeberg, Hannäs, Hellerö,
Hälleberg, Hällingsby, Högby, Forsum, Kärrvik, Liljestad, Linneberga,
Ljunga, Lundby, Sjögerum, Skönberga, Stockebäck, Säverum

------------
add up on the information above that Ljunga is short north of the area
abondoned in the time when the people from Tjust/Teutas first were mentioned
in Ancient texts,
and that Linguistic maps shows that:(From Summary and Conclusion)
"Bevarandet av gammalt uttal av a, å och ä i undersökningsområdet kan tyda
på att undersökningsområdet knappast har varit ockuperat eller besegrat av
yttre fiender i äldre tider. I denna slutsats ber jag att få referera till
Per A Pettersson Svenska institutionen vid SVI som instämde i att det tycks
finnas en tendens som talar för detta när man tittar på språkbilden i
undersökningsområdet."

"The preserved 'a', 'å' and 'ä' sound in the investigated area might point
to that the investigated area hardly never have been occupied nor conquered
by enemies from outside the area during older Ages. In this respect and
conclusion I [hereby] ask to refer to Per A Pettersson, Swedish Institution
at SVI[Swedish Language Dept at Linköping's university] who assented a
tendency pointing in that direction when the Linguistic-map for the
investigated area is analyzed.

-----------
End of quotes.
I think it's fair to say that anyone no matter of title and/or degrees
trying to put forward argument that the Goths Scandinavian origin is a Myth
will be facing a major problem of credibility. The shown example and quotes
are from one out of several hundred places within the part of Ostrogothia
north-eastern Smaaland(=Tjust, Teute) showing exactly same pattern.

On top of it all the settlements in the investigated area from Motala in
north west to the Braviken in north east down to Hästholmen(half way to
Gränna/Vising's Island) in south west and to Västervik in south east, show
that from the Stone Age on forward except from the Tjust area the
settlements show a continued unbraken line up to the Viking Age and that the
settlements and artifacts found in almost all cases are found within a range
of 1 km from the best waterway at respective Age. The fact that the area
show regular trade-contacts from Östergötland(Sweden) down via River Visla,
Hungarian Pusta, eastward on Donau to the Black Sea area from early Bronze
Age up to 1000 AD shouldn't be forgotten either.

Inger E

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