Re: German population in Europe after fall of Roman Empire.

From: Inger E Johansson (inger_e.johansson_at_notelia.com)
Date: 06/17/04 

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 12:04:33 GMT

"Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@not.net.au> skrev i meddelandet
news:40D15E62.8AEB06D4@not.net.au...
>
>
> Inger E Johansson wrote:
> >
> > Inside this please find parts of a message I sent earlier today.
> > "Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@not.net.au> skrev i meddelandet
> > news:40D06EF2.E8556C6A@not.net.au...
> > >
> > >
> > > Philip Deitiker wrote:
> > > >
> > > > kohlfurz@linuxmail.org (Kohlfurz) says in
> > > > news:60f13560.0406151016.3e71325d@posting.google.com:
> > > >
> > > [..]
> > > > > Scandinavian origin of goths is based on myth. How did the
> > > > > Goths get there, since the I-E group came from Black sea.
> > > >
> > > > I-E does not equal genetics. It is a cultural expansion.
> > > > 60% of scandinavian haplotypes undoubtedly expanded from western
> > > > europe (i.e. Ireland, Cornwall, etc), 30% of the haplotypes
> > > > appear to come from peoples who lived proximal to scandinavia,
> > > > and very little evidence that scandinavian peoples originated
> > > > from the black sea. In fact I can find better evidence for black
> > > > sea origin in the Yupik eskimoes than I can find for evidence in
> > > > the Swedish population.
> > >
> > > What a load of uneducated clap-trap!!
> >
> > The Goths followed the withdrawing Ice Coat northward walking over the
then
> > dry 'North Sea's' area. Settlements from early Stone Age correspond to
where
> > Ice halted and so on.
>
> "The Goths" is a wrong term for the day's of the Ice age. There were
> many other cultures back then - Beaker people, corded ware people,
> grey ware pottery.... etc etc... The problem is that they were not
> identifiable as "Goths" before they had attained a particular language
> and culture - further more the name itself is derived from "Götaland",
> the island of the East coast of Sweden. It is there they attained the
> culture and had the language that identifies them as "Goths". This is
> well into AD before that happened.
>
> > The part of Scandinavia we are talking about is Götaland/Gotaland
(today's
> > name) where the major parts Västergötland/Wisigothia and
> > Östergötland/Ostrogothia been a part of as long as we know of the names
and
> > for Wisigothia we know that Göta Älv/Gota Elf in the first century AD
was
> > called Wigotha Elf.(at least one of the B-versions of Ptolomy in West
and
> > some in the Arabic versions contain that information).
>
> The "Älv" in this case surely means "river", rather than "elf".
> Germanic people whose two branches, the Ostrogoths and the Visigoths.
> They were identifies as a people only when they surfaced in SE Europe.

I used word Elf because that word is used by the earliest documents speaking
of the area in question Wigotha Elf btw.
>
> Jordanes says the Goths originated in southern Scandinavia and crossed
> in three ships under king Berig to the southern shore of the Baltic
> Sea, where they settled after defeating the Vandals and other Germanic
> peoples there. Tacitus states that the Goths at this time were
> distinguished by their round shields, their short swords, and their
> obedience toward their kings. Jordanes goes on to report that they
> migrated southward from the Vistula region under Filimer, the fifth
> king after Berig and, after various adventures, arrived at the Black
> Sea. This makes it around 300 AD.

They moved for the first time, moved at that time because it was the people
of Tjust/Teuste, around 150 BC.
The group later called Halaner arrived in what's now called Kiel Bay. Some
married and some returned to Scandinavia. The next migration, more a
migration of males, happened around the birth of Christ. This time the
migrators settled in the outlet of river Visla and river Oder in the area
where they earlier on had done a lot of trading.
This can be read of from old documents. The merchandise area on the west
shore of the outlet of river Wisla was by some contemporary sources called
'Geata'.
The big migration started in 2nd century. Due to several very good years
more children had reached ages above 15 and a lot moved on. That's
documented in the Guta Saga as well as mentioned in Dio Chrysostomus book
which in English should have title 'On the Geatae'.
If nothing happens the so called missing book will be copied and hopefully
photographed page by page as well by an American-Turkey scholar who has done
such work most don't know of each summer for the last years.

Inger E

>
> [I'll read the remainder more carefully later]
>
> --
> SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
> misled.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

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