Re: Alaska on 'Ancient' maps

From: Eric Stevens (eric.stevens_at_sum.co.nz)
Date: 06/27/04 

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:52:09 +1200

On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 16:33:51 GMT, Philip Deitiker
<Donevenask@worlnet.att.net> wrote:

>Doug McDonald <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu> says in
>news:cbmmqb$t76$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu:
>
>> Drew Nicholson wrote:
>>>>Or way not take a closer look at Ortelius maps in
>>>>Theatrum orbis terrarum. edited 1570.....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?action=browse&collId=g
>>> nrlmap&fileName=gmd3m/g3200m/g3200m/gct00003/ct_browse.db&r
>>> ecNum=0&title2=Theatrvm%20orbis%20terrarvm.%20-%20introduct
>>> ion,%20page%204&displayType=3&maxCols=3&itemLink=r?ammem/gm
>>> d:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3200m+gct00003))&LinkText=Back+to+Bi
>>> bliographic+Information
>>>
>>>
>>> here's that URL, Tiney'd
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/3f27s
>>>
>>> Honestly, none of the maps I see are clear enough to tell
>>> whether or not they really have alaska in them or not.
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh poppy***. Some of those are plenty good enough to show
>> Alaska and some show eastern Siberia too, though
>> unfortunately the one that shows Siberia best has the
>> Mongols stuffed up far too north and east.
>
>I hope you are being sarcastic.
>
>On the URLed maps I should say that the last noticable detail on
>the northwestern detail is the inflection off of Los Angeles,
>The detail for San Fransisco Bay is missing as with the details
>for the catalina Islands. According to either map it is clear
>that the knowledge up to Los Angeles was at best unfamiliar, and
>above that non-existent or presumptive.

You seem to be judging them on the basis of the standards of
cartography introduced at about the time of James Cook. Mariners of
several hundred years earlier could be expected to miss such details
when merely cruising up the coast. For that matter, James Cook missed
the passage between the north and south islands of New Zealand during
his first pass along the coast of that country.
>
>The highest labeled towns name is Tuchana, which is probably a
>latinization for cachuma, or similarly used Indian name for
>that region given by locals. I don't think the cartographer's
>source made it north of point conception. There are a number of
>matching details on the map from just south of San Luis de
>Obispo to Los Angeles that let one know that the detailer has a
>SeaMans knowledge of the southern Santa Barbara Channel, making
>Quivila between Surf and Gaviota, possibly piont conception
>itself.
> There are a number of badly taken assumptions if so lending
>incredibility to the map even where it is more meticulous.
>The So-called Seirra Nevada on the map is in the precise
>position where the Santa Yves Mountains run up to the sea. This
>is an unmistakable landmark. In map units the detail between the
>'ptConception/QVIVILA' and the 'LosAngeles/Tiguex' is about the
>same distance from the pt and the top edge of the map, in which
>is inscribed.

I don't think I would use the word 'precise' to describe any aspect of
these maps.
>
>"Vterius Septemptrionin versus he regionis incognite adhuc funt"
>
>Which probably means, areas in which the mapmaker doesn't know
>what the hell he is drawing due to complete lack of information.
>
>Now above the Tiguex one sees in approximate position the San
>Gabrial and Pinto mountains. What all this tells us is that the
>source for the map maker was familiar with the area from the Los
>Angeles was not very familia with baja california, never
>ventured far enough offshore to ascertain the distance to
>various islands, and never traveled more than 100 miles north of
>point conception along the coast, or 20 miles inland of the
>coast. The positioning of Anion or Alaska or any other detail in
>this map would be 'fuzz' fiting at best. In fact many of the
>details on the atlantic side are at best.
>
>> I think that Alaska was EXPLORED, not discovered, in the
>> mid 18th century.
>
>Yes, explored by asians and native americans. Prior to the 17th
>century it probably was not explored by anyone who could have
>given Italian cartographers anykind of coherant information.

What about the builders of all those unexplained stone cairns in
locations shown in http://www.spirasolaris.ca/1amap2c.html ?
If the cairns were built by the norse it is possible that some
information did return.

Eric Stevens

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