Re: German population in Europe after fall of Roman Empire.

From: Soren Larsen (sohela_at_tiscali.dk)
Date: 06/28/04 

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:08:31 +0200

"Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@not.com.au> skrev i en meddelelse
news:40DFE1D5.1761879C@not.com.au
> Inger E Johansson wrote:
>>

>
>> Seppo,
>> Ostrogoths have been proven beyond any reasonable doubts to origin
>> from Ostergotland.
>
> The "Ostro" part of the "Goths" is said to mean "eastern" and as
> opposed to the "Visi" or "Western" Goths.

It is surely said, but it is wrong, Visi meaning 'noble' and Ostro meaning
'shining'.

The 'east' and west' convention only entered in a period when the Visigoths
just happened to be located West of the Ostrogoths

> BOTH are a later people that
> the single people known as "Goths".

What Goths? - Tervingi or Greutungi?

>
> http://www.roangelo.net/valente/longobar.html
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11347d.htm
>
> I can't find anything that comes close to mentioning BC for Goths, and
> Ostrogoths particularly. The very earliest arguments I can find for
> "Goths" is them being at the Vistula at around the time of the Birth
> of Christ but this is uncertain too. This is well before they moved
> anywhere.

You have just killed Ingers argument about them being Scandinavian :-)

Anyway the Goths on the Vistula is an archaeological identification
of the Goths with the Wielbark culture. So you are damned right
this in uncertain, since there is nada cooperation in the sources.

>
> "Medieval" starts from about 500 AD. That claim of the "three ships"
> is disputed by a number of people including Isidore of Seville. Also
> by Arne Soby Christensen book (based on his PHD thesis), "Cassiodorus
> Jordanes and the History of the Goths". The title is misleading.

How can the title "Cassiodorus Jordanes and the History of the Goths"
be misleading?

> Cassiodorus was an Italian author who write twelve-volume history of
> the Goths, now lost.

Cassiodorus was a Roman of eastern extraction (Anthioc) who happened
to be living in Italy. There was no such beast as an Italian at the time.

If you are going to argue on the grounds of geography, then be advised
that the Ostrogoths in living in Italy at the time also should be concidered
Italians.

>It is said Jordanes condensed those 12 volumes in
> his own works.

No! That is what Jordanes says.

>
> Still it does have support elsewhere. The arguments that they did not
> originate from Scandza

BZZZZZT! It is the origin in Scandinavia that has to be proved.
Not the opposite.

>which was separated by the Baltic sea from the
> mainland of Europe - or both sides of it, are linguistic and don't
> have great deal of weight as they go both ways - to support and NOT
> support..... "

Actually are modern lingustic the most damaging argument against
Ingers fantasy, since nobody any longer conciders north and
east germanic to be more closely related than west and north germanic.

And this is not just theories, since we can actually watch the
seperation between north and west germanic (c 500AD) in the early
runic inscriptions, at a point in time when east germanic had long
since seperated from their common ancestor northwest germanic.

So nada linguistic support for a Scandinavian origin.

>Gutthones" is claimed to appear in Greek and is the
> claimed forerunner to the name "Goths". Only I can find no Greek text
> mentioning "Gutthones".

Pytheas through Pliny the Elder - uncertain - Otherwise Pliny's own
writing.

>
> Here is an "interesting" site:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/troels_brandt/heruleng.html
>
> Some things are OK at least - can't guarantee the lot though...

You dont say! :-)

Soren Larsen

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