Re: Copper Casting In America (Trevelyan)

From: Yuri Kuchinsky (yuku_at_trends.ca)
Date: 06/30/04 

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:03:38 -0400

Tom McDonald wrote:
>
> Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
>
> > Gary Coffman wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:04:49 +1200, Eric Stevens <eric.stevens@sum.co.nz> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 03:03:50 -0400, Gary Coffman <ke4zv@bellsouth.net>
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:46:01 -0500, Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Eric Stevens wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:57:04 GMT, ke4zv@bellsouth.net (Gary Coffman)
> >>>>>>wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>But that said, casting pure copper is a bitch.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>This from the guy who has just written that the task can be undertaken
> >>>>>>by low-skilled workers?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Eric, I read that to mean that casting, in general (as with
> >>>>>iron, silver, bronze, gold, etc.) can be done by folks with
> >>>>>fewer skills than smiths. However, copper appears to present
> >>>>>particular problems with casting that are not so pronounced with
> >>>>> other metals, and which require higher skill levels than would
> >>>>>be required by those who cast other metals.
> >>>>
> >>>>Exactly, and further, skill alone isn't sufficient to make sound
> >>>>castings of pure copper. The proper equipment is also required.
> >>>>Specifically, an inert atmosphere furnace. That technology
> >>>>didn't exist until the late 19th century.
> >>>
> >>>Just as well the ancient egyptians didn't know that they couldn't do
> >>>what they were doing. :-)
> >>
> >>So, are you claiming to have evidence that the ancient Egyptians
> >>successfully cast pure native copper?
> >>
> >>The metallurgical references I have say that native copper was
> >>extremely rare in Egypt. Almost all of the copper they had was
> >>refined from ores (smelted), and the results were *not* pure
> >>copper. Rather, they were alloys, whether intentional or not,
> >>of copper, arsenic, zinc, iron, or tin. These alloys behave *very*
> >>differently from pure native copper when casting is attempted.
> >>
> >>Gary
> >
> >
> > Well, Gary, the folowing sure seems to imply that the
> > ancient Egyptian did some copper casting.
> >
> > [quote]
> >
> > Ancient Egyptian raw materials: metals - copper, bronze,
> > iron, gold, silver, lead
> > http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm
> >
> >
> > Re: copper objects [rather than bronze]:
> >
> > The objects were generally cast, which is quite difficult to
> > do with copper because of the formation of gas bubbles
> > during the pouring of the metal and its shrinking when it
> > cooled down. Then they were hammered cold to give them their
> > final form.
> >
> > [unquote]
>
> Yuri,
>
> Your site tells us that copper ore was what was available, not
> native copper; and that it had to be smelted before use. IOW,
> it's not clear whether the Egyptians ever had copper of the
> purity of the native copper in the upper Great Lakes area. In
> addition, the smelting and melting of that copper would more
> than likely have resulted in a copper alloy, not pure copper.
>
> Of course, if you have better evidence that shows Egyptians
> cast 99+% pure copper, you are welcome to present it here. I
> for one would be very interested in that evidence.
>
> Tom McDonald

My main point here is that Gary Coffman is wrong with his
speculations that copper casting was too difficult for
ancient peoples to do.

I'm merely trying to teach Mr. Coffman a few things about
metalworking, as it applies to ancient peoples.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

A great many people think they are thinking when they are
merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James

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