Re: German population in Europe after fall of Roman Empire.

From: Inger E Johansson (inger_e.johansson_at_notelia.com)
Date: 07/02/04 

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 22:33:10 GMT

"Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@not.com.au> skrev i meddelandet
news:40E57266.2476653C@not.com.au...
>
>
> Inger E Johansson wrote:
> >
> > Seppo,
> > No people migrating into Götaland AFTER Late Stone Age before 1100 AD.
No
> > group ever conquered the Goths who definitely with 100% certainty
origined
> > from Östergötland and Västergötland.
>
> I would have a problem with that as a general statement. I know that
> some very early migration originating from somewhere around the Danube
> area did occur as it ended up in Western parts of Finland via Sweden.

No that's not correct at all. NO migration from that area but contrary to
that migration to that area actually the Goths from Götaland(Gotland
included) established merchandise villages and towns in several places, some
like those in the Baltic and in Russia was held by the Goths's descendants
the Vikings with a brake from 854 to 861 AD and then on by the Varjags from
Östergötland's Royal Dynasties up to 1200's. Well documented you know. Very
very welldocumented to that extant that there also is a very good
description of Gotland island. And btw - there are very rarely discussed
Arabian sources telling same story as the referenses I present below.

I suggest you look up Philostratus, Lives of Sophists, bok 1:487 where he
speaks of Dio Chrysostomus, born in Bithynia år 40 AD, who not only visited
the Getae in the far north. He wrote about them as well. It's from his still
existing speaches and the now lost book 'On the Getae' that Jordanes got his
'Dio' information.

Further reading:
Ptolomy, Geography of Claudius Ptolomy, translated ed. E L Stevenson, New
York 1932.
[Among other thing he spoke of 'Vigothaelv' and the people in Skandia who
were called 'gautoi'.

then there is Ablabius of course. Ablabius who by some contemporary was said
to come from an 'obscure' family, by some was said to be half-Goth and who
was hated by most sophists. Ablabius work about the Gothes are only
delivered via 4th-6th century Historians' works. The origin might exist in
Asia Minor due to the Eastern Roman Empire's long existence.

then we have Ammianus Marcellius who gives information of the Goths origin
which is confirmed by Zosimus, Orosius and several others to be from the
Northern parts of Europe, over the water from or from the island in the
Northern Ocean etc.

Then we have Eunapius, Dexippus, Cassiodorus, Procopius, Jordanes, Plinus
Secundus and so on to Paulus Diaconus. Not to mention that the Gutasaga is
confirmed in the said Historians given information......

> Part of that was the Battle Axe culture and one other that has a
> reference to pottery. It then rather depends on the time you refer to
> as "Late Stone Age".

No that's not true but we can discuss the pottery if you want to. The best
proof that the axes found in Götaland you refer to very soon were replaced
by alike axes made by local material. As for the pottery it's easy to show
that the trade from and to Götaland were an undergoing process never ever
stopped in either direction from Early Bronze Age on.

That's one of the other conclusion I did and which was accepted due to my
survey - "Först importerades en ny produkt, denna hittar vi ofta i mer
välutrustade gravar (stormannagravar?). När ett föremål blir mer vanligt
börjar det antingen produceras av lokalt material eller av importerad
råvara. Fram till folkvandringstiden visar det undersökta materialet
tämligen entydigt att det är längs vattenvägarna som en stor del av denna
utvecklingen skett inom undersökningsområdet"

Quick translation:
First new products were imported, these we usually find in well-equiped
graves(local warleader's graves?). When an item come to be used on larger
scales it either was produced from locally found material or from imported
raw material. Up to Migration Age the studied artifacts almost unambiguous
show that it's along the waterways this main development took place in the
survey area".
Source: Johansson Inger E, Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre tider,
C-uppsats 1993, History Dept Linköping's University.

I guess your next question is how much of the artifacts I took into
consideration. In my survey I made datafiles for every single artifact,
early shave-knives and scrapes included, ever found and registred up to 1992
from Östergötland and Småland. On my maps I marked the essential ones. I
went thru the 'Fornminnesregister' and since it was I who had been one in
the group working with the been working with the early computerization of
diarium at the Museum in Linköping when I worked one year as Gunnar
Lindqvist's Executive Secretary, I know where to look for more information.
I managed to track the origin papers from almost all excavations made in
Östergötland to check if there were any additive information there. I know
what I am talking about you know.

Inger E