Re: German population in Europe after fall of Roman Empire.

From: Seppo Renfors (Renfors_at_not.com.au)
Date: 07/03/04 

Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 08:38:46 GMT

Inger E Johansson wrote:
>
> "Seppo Renfors" <Renfors@not.com.au> skrev i meddelandet
> news:40E57266.2476653C@not.com.au...
> >
> >
> > Inger E Johansson wrote:
> > >
> > > Seppo,
> > > No people migrating into Götaland AFTER Late Stone Age before 1100 AD.
> No
> > > group ever conquered the Goths who definitely with 100% certainty
> origined
> > > from Östergötland and Västergötland.
> >
> > I would have a problem with that as a general statement. I know that
> > some very early migration originating from somewhere around the Danube
> > area did occur as it ended up in Western parts of Finland via Sweden.
>
> No that's not correct at all. NO migration from that area but contrary to
> that migration to that area actually the Goths from Götaland(Gotland
> included) established merchandise villages and towns in several places, some
> like those in the Baltic and in Russia was held by the Goths's descendants
> the Vikings with a brake from 854 to 861 AD and then on by the Varjags from
> Östergötland's Royal Dynasties up to 1200's. Well documented you know. Very
> very welldocumented to that extant that there also is a very good
> description of Gotland island. And btw - there are very rarely discussed
> Arabian sources telling same story as the referenses I present below.

WHOA WHOA!!! Wrong era....

You are not reading what I wrote - "battle axe culture" - it was in
the early/mid bronze age (for SE Europe and Asia minor). At some point
in time of about 3000 -> 2500 BCE is when the migration took place -
the evidence can be found in both Finland and mainland Sweden of
Östergötland (IIRC), in burial styles as well as pottery style in
addition to the axe. So it depends on your version of "Late Stone Age"
as a period in time YOU refer to. If you recall, I had a very lengthy
debate with Tomi on this subject - the information is in that debate.

> I suggest you look up Philostratus, Lives of Sophists, bok 1:487 where he
> speaks of Dio Chrysostomus, born in Bithynia år 40 AD, who not only visited
> the Getae in the far north. He wrote about them as well. It's from his still
> existing speaches and the now lost book 'On the Getae' that Jordanes got his
> 'Dio' information.

This is millennia after the time I spoke of.

> Further reading:
> Ptolomy, Geography of Claudius Ptolomy, translated ed. E L Stevenson, New
> York 1932.
> [Among other thing he spoke of 'Vigothaelv' and the people in Skandia who
> were called 'gautoi'.
>
> then there is Ablabius of course. Ablabius who by some contemporary was said
> to come from an 'obscure' family, by some was said to be half-Goth and who
> was hated by most sophists. Ablabius work about the Gothes are only
> delivered via 4th-6th century Historians' works. The origin might exist in
> Asia Minor due to the Eastern Roman Empire's long existence.
>
> then we have Ammianus Marcellius who gives information of the Goths origin
> which is confirmed by Zosimus, Orosius and several others to be from the
> Northern parts of Europe, over the water from or from the island in the
> Northern Ocean etc.
>
> Then we have Eunapius, Dexippus, Cassiodorus, Procopius, Jordanes, Plinus
> Secundus and so on to Paulus Diaconus. Not to mention that the Gutasaga is
> confirmed in the said Historians given information......
>
> > Part of that was the Battle Axe culture and one other that has a
> > reference to pottery. It then rather depends on the time you refer to
> > as "Late Stone Age".
>
> No that's not true but we can discuss the pottery if you want to. The best
> proof that the axes found in Götaland you refer to very soon were replaced
> by alike axes made by local material. As for the pottery it's easy to show
> that the trade from and to Götaland were an undergoing process never ever
> stopped in either direction from Early Bronze Age on.

Aha.... and it had to originate from the area it first appeared in. It
arrives with people and they then make it locally. The Battle axe
arrived from where I said earlier as that is about were it originated
from. I don't dispute the local manufacturing of the goods - in fact
stone axes were made to have the ridge of a mould used to cast
copper/bronze axe head.

Denmark also had the stone axe market pretty well cornered in that
part of the world for a time as well (not the battle axe).

> That's one of the other conclusion I did and which was accepted due to my
> survey - "Först importerades en ny produkt, denna hittar vi ofta i mer
> välutrustade gravar (stormannagravar?). När ett föremål blir mer vanligt
> börjar det antingen produceras av lokalt material eller av importerad
> råvara. Fram till folkvandringstiden visar det undersökta materialet
> tämligen entydigt att det är längs vattenvägarna som en stor del av denna
> utvecklingen skett inom undersökningsområdet"

See, you basically agree with what I said above :-)

The difference is, you say a new "product" is "imported", I say
"brought with them" - and logically the later is more likely. The
reason being that the battle axe wasn't a very practical item at all.
It is thought to have had more a religious/ceremonial significance
than a practical use. Such notions can't be imported, it has to be
brought in by people who explain it to give the item that significance
it otherwise wouldn't have.

> Quick translation:
> First new products were imported, these we usually find in well-equiped
> graves(local warleader's graves?). When an item come to be used on larger
> scales it either was produced from locally found material or from imported
> raw material. Up to Migration Age the studied artifacts almost unambiguous
> show that it's along the waterways this main development took place in the
> survey area".
> Source: Johansson Inger E, Vattenvägarna in mot Roxen i äldre tider,
> C-uppsats 1993, History Dept Linköping's University.
>
> I guess your next question is how much of the artifacts I took into
> consideration. In my survey I made datafiles for every single artifact,
> early shave-knives and scrapes included, ever found and registred up to 1992
> from Östergötland and Småland. On my maps I marked the essential ones. I
> went thru the 'Fornminnesregister' and since it was I who had been one in
> the group working with the been working with the early computerization of
> diarium at the Museum in Linköping when I worked one year as Gunnar
> Lindqvist's Executive Secretary, I know where to look for more information.
> I managed to track the origin papers from almost all excavations made in
> Östergötland to check if there were any additive information there. I know
> what I am talking about you know.

I don't have all the information, is true, only sufficient to be able
to argue origins of people in South-West coastal area of Finland. Some
germanic people most likely did come straight across the water, but
others are known to have come via Sweden. The did NOT walk in from or
via the East. 

-- 
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised 
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