Re: Polynesian canoes (Re: Rat genes solve mystery of great Pacific odyssey

From: Yuri Kuchinsky (yuku_at_trends.ca)
Date: 07/05/04 

Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:59:03 -0400

benlizross wrote:
>
> Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> >
> > benlizross wrote:
> > >
> > > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> > > >
> > > > benlizross wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Linguistic evidence can never prove anything (outside of
> > > > > > > > linguistics, that is). At best, such evidence can only
> > > > > > > > _suggest_ some things, which then need to be proven by hard
> > > > > > > > physical evidence, such as archaeological.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, I know you're chronically skeptical about linguistic evidence,
> > > > > > > Yuri, since it almost never supports what you're trying to prove.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is news to me...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's just say in this case all the "suggestions" go one way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > According to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > And to everyone else who actually knows something about it.
> > > >
> > > > How many people are that?
> > >
> > > Let's just say they would considerably outnumber me. And you. So forget
> > > the tired old ploy about how it's "just my opinion".
> >
> > Hmm... an appeal to some anonymous experts to support a
> > point of view. Somehow this reminds me of another active
> > participant in sci.arch... :)
>
> Oh, they're not anonymous, Yuri. It's just that you've never shown any
> interest in who they are or what they have to say. You could start by
> looking at the appropriate sections of the Austronesian Comparative
> Dictionary, edited by DT Tryon, or the recent book "Hawaiki, Ancestral
> Polynesia" by Kirch & Green, which makes extensive use of Polynesian
> linguistic evidence, or the article on canoes by A & M Pawley in
> "Austronesian Terminologies: Continuity and Change". That's just off the
> top of my head. Let me know if you get through those and want a fuller
> reading list.

So which of them investigated Canadian West Coast Indian
names for such things?

> > > > > > > > Meanwhile, here's a "credible authority" for you. It seems
> > > > > > > > like you still have a lot to learn in this area...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Their [Canadian West Coast Natives'] canoes are large and
> > > > > > > > roomy, capable of accommodating scores of men; they are made
> > > > > > > > with great skill and artistic talent; they are of all
> > > > > > > > primitive craft the most fitted for meeting the conditions
> > > > > > > > of oceanic voyaging, and have a great resemblance to the
> > > > > > > > Maori war canoe." (J. M. Brown, PEOPLES AND PROBLEMS OF THE
> > > > > > > > PACIFIC. London, 1927, Vol. II, p. 68)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is it? Dear old Macmillan Brown? You were right to put "credible
> > > > > > > authority" in quotes. But what does he actually tell us here?
> > > > > > > The NW Coast people built big canoes. We knew that.
> > > > > > > They resemble the Maori war canoe (JMB being a New Zealander). Hm. In
> > > > > > > what way exactly?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Something for you to investigate perhaps.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, something for you to explain to us, since it is you who is putting
> > > > > this forth as evidence for your claims.
> > > >
> > > > So I guess you're not interested in investigating this
> > > > subject for yourself.
> > >
> > > So I guess you're stalling to avoid admitting you have no further
> > > evidence.
> >
> > I've cited Macmillan Brown, This is evidence.
>
> Look up the word "further" in your dictionary. I tried to indicate
> politely how far it was from JMB to a serious argument.

I see... So you're not just bigoted against Heyerdahl, but
also against Macmillan Brown. Is there a list somewhere of
all the scholars that you're bigoted against?

> > > > > > > Besides being big canoes made by peoples who have
> > > > > > > access to big trees? Is there some particular detail of their structure
> > > > > > > that would lead us to conclude that the one must have been derived from,
> > > > > > > or inspired by, the other? JMB does not say.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It could be the carved bow and stern pieces, for example.
> > > > >
> > > > > Uh huh? Just the existence of such things, or their particular form?
> > > >
> > > > Both.
> > > >
> > > > > You
> > > > > can show that whatever it is is found nowhere else in the world?
> > > >
> > > > And why is this important?
> > >
> > > Are you now pretending you don't understand the basic logic of these
> > > arguments?
> > >
> > > > > > > And finally they are "most fitted for meeting the conditions of oceanic
> > > > > > > voyaging". Wait a minute. The Maori war canoe, as I understand it, is an
> > > > > > > adaptation to lake and river travel (which were not an issue in tropical
> > > > > > > Polynesia).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your understanding may be wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > It may be. Unfortunately your crossposting has not brought us any fresh
> > > > > expertise from among the boat-builders or the New Zealanders. And I know
> > > > > your understanding is no better than mine.
> > > >
> > > > I doubt it.
> > > >
> > > > > > > It is used along the coasts as well, of course, but you do
> > > > > > > not cross an ocean in such a vessel. When the Maori, in recent years,
> > > > > > > have taken up oceanic voyaging, they have built themselves big double
> > > > > > > hulled canoes. With sails. And what about sails on the NW coast? I was
> > > > > > > struck by Cook's statement that the Nootka knew nothing of sails. Is
> > > > > > > there good evidence for them being used elsewhere on the NW coast? How
> > > > > > > feasible is it to get from British Columbia to Polynesia without sails?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now that you've crossposted this to some other groups, perhaps we'll get
> > > > > > > some useful information.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ross Clark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Same types of sail have been identified both in Canada and
> > > > > > NZ. Also, same type of double hulled canoes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Reference?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ross Clark
> > > >
> > > > So I guess you know less about this subject than I do...
> > >
> > > So I guess once again you're evading the question.
> > >
> > > Ross Clark
> >
> > I just wanted to demonstrate that you apparently know less
> > about this subject than I do.
>
> Wanting does not seem to have made it so.
>
> Ross Clark

So have you ever heard that the same types of sail have been
identified both in Canada and NZ? And also the same type of
double hulled canoes?

You sure seem quite innocent of any such knowledge.

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

A great many people think they are thinking when they are
merely rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James

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